Kathak for the Planet: Celine Schein Das on Invoking the River

In this episode of Art Heals All Wounds, I talk with Celine Shein Das, Executive Director of the Chitresh Das Institute. We talk about the transformative power of art through the lens of the Kathak dance performance 'Invoking the River,' a multimedia production that draws attention to climate change and the human relationship with water. Celine shares insights on the origins and evolution of Kathak dance, the profound storytelling it enables, and the collaborative efforts behind this performance. The episode also highlights the institute's commitment to art for the planet and the impact of the performance of Invoking the River, both in the United States and India. Celine encourages us all to explore our relationships with art and the planet while reflecting on the powerful messages conveyed through this unique performance.

00:00 Introduction: Can Art Change the World?

01:57 Meet Celine Shein Das and Chitresh Das Dance

02:40 Exploring Kathak Dance and 'Invoking the River'

05:36 The Artistic Vision Behind 'Invoking the River'

10:10 The Legacy of Pandit Chitresh Das

33:08 Impact and Reception of 'Invoking the River'

45:35 Future Performances and Final Thoughts

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Pam Uzzell: Do you believe art can change the world? So do I! On this show, we meet artists whose work is doing just that. Welcome to Art Heals All Wounds. I'm your host, Pam Uzzell. 

[00:00:28] Audio from 'Invoking the River': I am Ganga.

[00:00:41] A heavenly body, ancient and young.

[00:00:49] Tales of me have been told and sung.

[00:00:56] Two parts hydrogen, the stuff of stars. Same as your teeth, your bones, and galaxies afar.

[00:01:09] One part oxygen, breath itself.

[00:01:15] You are me, more than you are yourself. 

[00:01:32] 

[00:01:57] Pam Uzzell: If you want to understand how art can change the way you think, see, and feel, then you'll want to listen to today's guest, Celine Shein Das. Celine is the executive director of Chitresh Das Dance. As part of their Art for the Planet, Chitresh Das Dance created a Kathak dance, a multimedia performance called ''''Invoking the River'''.'

[00:02:22] Kathak dance is a form of Indian classical dance. The name Kathak contains the Sanskrit word katha, which means legend or story. Kathak dancers use rhythmic footwork, hand movements, and facial expressions to show stories. Under the leadership of Celine Shein Das, artistic director of Chichestas Dance, Charlotte Moraga, conceptualized and choreographed a new way to think about rivers and the fundamental role they have in life and culture.

[00:02:56] The dancers, Mayuka Sarukkai, Vanita Mundhra, Shruti Pai, and Kritika Sharma, take on the role of different rivers and tell their stories. How are these rivers doing with the stress that we've inflicted on them? What happens if they stop giving back to us? They're accompanied by music composed and performed by Utsav Lal on piano, and Nilan Chaudhuri plays tabla.

[00:03:23] All of this is guided by the sound, video, and poetic verse by the brilliant filmmaker Alka Raghuram, who spoke the opening lines you just heard. Thank you to Chitresh Das Dance for reminding me in such a beautiful way that we don't just live on planet Earth, we are of it.

[00:03:51] You want to know how you can really help me keep this show going? Follow me on your favorite listening app. So easy, right? And if you really want to give the show a boost, leave me a five star rating or review. Hi, Celine. Thank you so much for being on Art Heals All Wounds. Can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, your full name, and what you do?

[00:04:16] Celine Shein Das: Yes, well thank you first for having me and the work of the Chitresh Das Institute. My name is Celine Shein Das and I'm the executive director of the Chitresh Das Institute. I started working with Kathak, which is Indian classical dance with my late husband Pandit Chitresh Das first. I believe it was 1994 95 in different capacities.

[00:04:46] So, it goes my relationship to this incredible art form started with my connection to this person, Pandit Chitresh Das many years ago. So, I now run the organization, which is a performing arts institution. [00:05:00] And an educational institution based in the San Francisco Bay area. And we have three locations for the school and we do local performances and premiere new works and tour nationally, internationally as well.

[00:05:14] Pam Uzzell: Right. And I was very fortunate to see your husband dance. I was involved in the, in the film that played behind the program he did, the relationship between Kathak and Flamenco. 

[00:05:30] Celine Shein Das: Okay, with Alka Raghuram, you worked, okay. 

[00:05:33] Pam Uzzell: Yes, the brilliant Alka Raghuram. So, you very kindly let me watch a video performance of Invoking the River.

[00:05:44] And when you sent me this video, you very correctly advised that I get into a dark room, with a large screen. And I'm so glad you did that. I never expected, first of all, the performance that you filmed to be so immersive as it was, and so incredibly delicately beautiful. And then beyond that, I thought that this particular performance, this particular program, was so incredibly brilliant and moving.

[00:06:23] I was doing a little bit of research before, you know, speaking with you and the relationship between Kathak and storytelling. Can you talk about that a little bit before we talk about what this performance is? 

[00:06:37] Celine Shein Das: Of course. So Kathak is North Indian classical dance and it has its origins back in ancient times, but much of what you see today evolved in post independence.

[00:06:53] So the art form has evolved significantly in the last 80 to 90 years. So this art form is an outcome also of Hindu and Muslim cultures. And so it is so rich and really representative in many ways of what's possible in society. So much is focused on clash of cultures, but when cultures come together, it's pretty powerful to have different cultural religious expressions exhibited within the art form.

[00:07:24] And it also is what makes the art form so rich. As you saw, it's characterized by rapid fire footwork, percussive footwork that produces rhythms. And then that's really the, the pure dance aspect, which is complimented by a beautiful lyrical arm movements that can be also staccato and powerful, really swift, intense pirouettes that are done on the heel, as opposed to ballet, which are done on the toe.

[00:07:55] But, uh, no less, no less challenging or challenging in a different way, I should say. So that's the pure dance, or what's referred to as the nritta element, N R I T T A. And then there's Natyam, which is the drama, that's N A T Y A M. And then there's also the in between pure dance and the kind of more or less pure drama, which is called nrittya.

[00:08:21] The two come together. So Kathak employs all three. And in terms of storytelling, it is a profound, profound storytelling tradition. And what you saw was group choreography, but also you saw some solos and gut tuck is traditionally a solo art form. And dancers portray. It's very interesting in the idea of gender because kathak dancers or Kathakas portray male, female, everything in between animate, inanimate, 

[00:08:55] and are incredible storytellers. So that is, is such an integral part. of the tradition. 

[00:09:04] Pam Uzzell: That makes so much sense considering 'Invoking the River'. I'm wondering if you could talk about what 'Invoking the River', what should I call it? I, you know, I call it a performance, but what I saw is actually a multimedia experience, but what should I call it?

[00:09:21] A choreography? A performance? What would you call this? 

[00:09:25] Celine Shein Das: I, well, I mean, I refer it for, you know, brevity's sake, a performance, but you're right. It's the level of each collaborator and performer that makes it so spectacular and so exceptional. And it's the intention, I think, behind it that really comes through.

[00:09:45] And is expressed by each collaborator and each performer. So I think that's, in my experience, one of the things that, that makes it so powerful. 

[00:09:56] Pam Uzzell: Wow. I would love for you to talk a little bit more about the [00:10:00] intention behind it. Both, if you know, the, different collaborators intentions, but then also yours.

[00:10:07] I would love to hear more about that. 

[00:10:09] Celine Shein Das: Sure. Well, Arts for the Planet is the program that we have started and have done many productions kind of touching on the idea of climate and climate change. And, and that originated with Pandit Chitresh Das. Because he was someone who saw art as a vehicle, he saw how it could build community, how it could bring awareness internally to someone practicing it or learning it.

[00:10:39] And he also saw that it could really bring different messages, different understanding in performance. So he was really a visionary in being able to see how you can maintain the tradition. He said, and there's a documentary on his collaboration with a tap star, Jason Samuel Smith. Called Upaj um, improvised.

[00:11:03] And it is on Amazon prime. So I would recommend anybody who can to watch it. That's spelled U P A J. Within that, he says. You have to evolve with the audience, you have to evolve with the times, or you'll be dead. The question is, how do you evolve without giving up your integrity? And he also talked about utilizing the platform, the medium of dance, as a vehicle for change.

[00:11:31] He didn't talk in that way, he just did it. He did it and it was the way that he, he approached things. So he, Charlotte Moraga, who's the artistic director of 'Invoking the River', she had what's referred to as Taalim, intense training with him for 23 years and he really took her under his wing in three ways as a dancer but also as a choreographer.

[00:11:58] He nurtured her and as a teacher. So he brought her in as the director of his youth company, which was really where future dancers were coming out of and he engaged in very intensive training. And so within the youth company he had Charlotte choreograph on them and teach them. So teaching this tradition is, was essential to him giving back or giving to the next generation was essential.

[00:12:27] And that's why, you know, when I said earlier, these things are all connected. The sustainability is not just about our planet with art for the planet. It's also the sustainability of this art, of this incredible legacy that he left. That is really, I say all the time, it's like this magic formula. Because it really is so powerful, so meaningful, and introduces people in a way that's undeniable to this art form of Kathak.

[00:12:55] Really lets them in, in a way that is, is... What he said, it's evolving, but it's not in any way giving up the integrity. It's fully within the integrity of this tradition. 

[00:13:10] Pam Uzzell: That's very beautiful and very wise as well. When did it start coming together that you were going to do specifically a performance around this idea of the river, and I would say in a broader sense, water, and You know, you're talking about water on and the river in both a very sacred way, but also in a very scientific way in this piece.

[00:13:40] So when did that start coming together that this was what you decided you wanted to do a performance on? 

[00:13:48] Celine Shein Das: The previous work that Charlotte Moraga, our artistic director, had done was called Mantra. And Mantram is a collaboration with a renowned Sarod artist and composer Alam Khan. His father was one of India's most illustrious Indian classical artists, and so he's the next generation.

[00:14:09] And that piece really was centered around fire. It touched on the five elements and we're actually presenting it. She's kind of finishing the piece because we first premiered it in 2021. It was supposed to be premiered in 2020. So it got pushed out, but she was not able to work with the dancers in our company Chitresh Das Dance

[00:14:30] enough to really finish the piece in the way, I mean, it was beautiful. So we're actually presenting the full piece this fall in San Francisco, and that's actually, the dancers dance a part of it on resonant boxes. It's a really, really interesting and powerful piece, but that piece was, as I mentioned, really the centerpiece of it was fire.

[00:14:53] Agni. So in looking forward, working Alka Raghuram, who wrote the [00:15:00] absolute, I mean, I cannot sing the praises enough about Alka Raghuram. Well, that's true for each of the collaborators and I, I'd like to touch on each of them, but we actually worked with her for our school show. We have a school of over 200 students and, uh, eight phenomenal teachers, Anita Pai, Asavari Ukidve, Preeti Salavadia, Rucha Khisti 

[00:15:18] Gauri Bhatnagar, Vanita Mundhra, and Samyukta Patil. These are all wonderful, committed teachers who serve the community with us and with Charlotte Moraga. So for our school show, Alka painted the backdrops and it was focused on water and then we used that as kind of a building ground for 'Invoking the River' and It just was the obvious kind of next step I think for Charlotte Moraga who took this art for the planet concept and really... she was able to make it breathe as opposed to like this kind of what we need to do this message. It's like what is important to say right now. And then her incredible ability is to work with the dancers from Chitresh Das Dance, and I have to name them, too. Mayuka Sarukai, Vanita Mundhra, who is also a teacher, Kritika Sharma, and Shruti Pai.

[00:16:22] So, she worked with each of these dancers, and then Utsav Lal, who is the brilliant pianist, composed the music in collaboration with Charlotte and the dancers and performs live. So she and Utsav worked with the dancers in different capacities, but Charlotte was able to guide them, let them have their voice, come forward with their ideas, but just really to kind of support them in the process.

[00:16:50] And that looked different for each dancer, but this is kind of, you know, similar to what he did with her. In the way that he would nurture her through her choreography and give her feedback and, and guidance. It's, it's again, that legacy continuing. So, particularly the solo pieces were very collaborative.

[00:17:12] And critical that each of these dancers be able to tell their own story. 

[00:17:17] Pam Uzzell: Well, I'm glad you mentioned everybody involved in this because Alka, I think, maybe first developed this sort of idea of liquid moving on the screen through painting with the program on flamenco, but it was taken to such a new level for 'Invoking the River' and each dancer was amazing and so different the dances that they did and the feelings that you got with each dancer and then the music. The composition was so amazing and I kind of was waiting with bated breath till the end to see, like, when you came out and you introduced everybody to see, like, is this an original composition?

[00:18:07] And to find out that it was, it was just such a beautiful kind of offering from every single artist involved to create this piece. 

[00:18:16] Celine Shein Das: Yes. And Nilan Chaudhuri, fantastic tabla player. 

[00:18:21] Pam Uzzell: Yes. 

[00:18:21] Celine Shein Das: Yeah. Amazing artist as well. Yes. Yes. I mean, I, I felt that too. I think it was an offering. And I think it's also like, the opportunity to ask questions that a performance gives us.

[00:18:36] And there's like one line in Alka Raghuram's, uh, multimedia and, and just for a little context, she and Charlotte Moraga really sat down and talked about the message that they wanted to convey. And that message was about giving the rivers agency. And so often bodies of water are compared to women. And in fact, in India, I don't know if it's every river, but, um, I believe every river has a goddess associated with that river.

[00:19:11] And so the dancers also, this again is, is the approach of, of Pandit Chitresh Das is that when he would tell stories, he would really look into them. He would research. It was always connected to looking deeper, to knowledge seeking. And not to, um, take things, uh, that, the point being that you study and obtain knowledge sufficiently that you can pick and choose.

[00:19:37] You are respectful to the tradition by learning it extensively and really seeking mastery, which takes tremendous commitment. And it's at that point then that you can start to pick and choose the messages that you want to glean from that. So there was really a process both in how Charlotte worked with [00:20:00] the dancers and finding stories that they wanted to tell based on the rivers that they chose.

[00:20:07] Uh, and similarly with her work with Alka was to give the rivers a voice, give them agency. And there's the one line that I was pointing out is when Alka says, speaking as the rivers, we can take back what we give. And every time it gave me chills because it's such a reminder that we think as humans, we that we are somehow in control, even if we're, you know, give lip service to, we don't, we're not in control.

[00:20:37] We really act as if we are. And so I think that part of the gift of this show is asking those questions in a way that, that people can, can maybe listen to it. Because I don't know about you, but I certainly have, I think, what's been diagnosed as climate anxiety and, and it becomes a, it becomes a just turn off moment or freak out moment or, you know, what are we going to do?

[00:21:07] You know, there's some things that can be done, but largely we're tuned out and, you know, there's reasons for that. It's not to put blame or anything like that. It's kind of how our society is structured. But I feel like this, again, as a platform is an opportunity to ask those questions and to see. So we have put like in the programs links to things people can do just make an appeal to reduce single use plastic just in something that we're actually exploring.

[00:21:38] How can we better connect the message that we're doing on stage with the message in life, what we're doing? So we, we've done stuff with our students, which they're the future and they have to take this on. So we've worked with them with our school show last year, they did projects around the climate. But really trying to get the idea that they have,

[00:22:03] not only have to inherit this, but they also have the power. We all have the power. We all do in small ways to, to, and potentially big. It depends on you. But that we have to ask that question. We can't just resign ourselves. And I think, you know, one of the quotes that I live by, I heard it from uh, Bryan Stevenson of the Equal Justice Initiative, but i'm sure it's been said by others that joy is resistance and so finding the joy and the peace and the beauty through the art may that give us the strength to keep fighting, to keep pushing to see, to keep questioning, to keep asking how we can address this within ourselves and, you know, externally so. I am, again, so thankful to my late husband for this gift and then to these incredible artists, you know, Charlotte and Alka and Utsav and Nilan and all the dancers for putting this out there.

[00:23:04] It's like, it's just so needed as, as we all know. 

[00:23:08] Pam Uzzell: It really is. And one thing, you talk about climate anxiety. I In preparing for this series on climate and the environment, I'm experiencing a lot of grief as well. And I think grief is a necessary but can also sometimes be, like anxiety, a paralyzing state to be in.

[00:23:34] And so I do think that watching something like 'Invoking the River' is really helpful in helping you leave that paralysis a little bit and see something in a different way. One thing I do want to talk about is that there's a real, and I'm not sure we got around to it, this real, beautiful. sense that both spiritual, artistic, and scientific thoughts about water and life and ourselves as humans, every other living thing on the planet, that you're bringing into this piece.

[00:24:16] And I think I know that it's said somewhat explicitly in the poem that Alka wrote for this, but everything that's happening in that poem is also being expressed and amplified through the dance and the music. I'd love to hear more about your thoughts about trying to use this, for lack of a better word, marriage.

[00:24:42] I named three things, so maybe, you know, most marriages only have two people, but this blending of these different parts of or ways that we as humans understand the world. 

[00:24:54] Celine Shein Das: Yeah, that's really interesting framing because I do think they're all there. Like I said, [00:25:00] you know, each of these rivers has goddesses.

[00:25:03] And so the dancers portray those goddesses in different ways with Vanita, Ganga, you know, receives so much. Receives the ashes of so many bodies, receives the prayers of so many people, and it has a ton of pollution, you know, and I do need to say that I think it's important when we talk about pollution in other countries,

[00:25:30] I think there can sometimes be an othering and, and, and Charlotte and Alka and I talked about that to not just point the fingers. Yes, Delhi may be one of the most polluted cities in the world, but if we don't look at what we're doing in the U. S. to contribute to that, so I think it's always important to, to put those discussions into context.

[00:25:54] But so then Vanita also represents Ganga on a personal level because her grandparents both died in this, when COVID ravaged India in around April 2021, I think it was. And they both died within a week of each other, her father's mother and father. So this was also a personal reflection on them. So obviously it's spiritual, in terms of Ganga or Ganges is, you know, pronouncing, uh, Ganga's role.

[00:26:26] So it did bring those three together. And it's so interesting that that came out organically, you know, that these dancers, and I think that's, with these traditional art forms, you know, there's so much, I wouldn't even say misconceptions around traditional art forms and by traditional, I pretty much mean like nonwhite, non Western art forms, and there's just so much ability for it to evolve.

[00:26:53] And I was at a, I was there at a very, very prestigious dance festival, um, with Pandit Chitrish Das and, and, uh, Jason Samuel Smith. And this very well known director said, uh, to, uh, Chitrish Das, he said, Well, you know, you, you pretty much do what your guru taught you. But Jason asked him a question. I was like, uh, actually he has evolved the art in such incredible ways.

[00:27:23] Such profound ways that ways that I think have yet to really be uncovered. And so I think that what is within these diverse, um, traditions and kind of the way that the performing arts field has historically worked, I'm excited that this production can open people's minds to how rich these traditions are.

[00:27:45] And that it's important for, for people to invest in seeing diverse art forms that they don't maybe understand or know to push outside of their comfort zone, that maybe it's more of a community presentation. I mean, we, you know, Panditji was also very, very attuned to high production values. And growing up with,

[00:28:07] in Kolkata, such a rich tradition. His parents ran an incredible performing arts institution that brought some of the greatest gurus. And then there's, uh, the great Uday Shankar who pioneered a lot of, he talked about seeing a shadow, a theater presentation in a, in a stadium in Kolkata growing up by Uday Shankar.

[00:28:28] It's important that a lot of these things, people look to the West as originating these things. But so much richness is evolved and developed in other countries. I mean, that goes, seems like an obvious statement, but working with him and working with his tradition, there's a lot of barriers and a lot of racism and a lot of history that, you know, he had to struggle.

[00:28:52] And I think that's, again, a recognition of this gift and it's emotional for all of us, because all of these dancers studied with him. Charlotte was shaped by him. And as a traditional guru, they call guru-shishya parampara or guru shivsha disciple, she pushed back. It was a, he called it a roller coaster ride.

[00:29:11] And as she and I have talked is, you know, ups and downs, but wouldn't have changed a second of it. So it's tremendous, tremendous to see that, that he envisioned this, that he came to this country, that he put, you know, what he came here 1970 and passed in 2015, 45 years of struggling to have this art form out there of teaching it to the next generation of all ethnicities, but, you know, making sure that also the next generation of

[00:29:44] Indian Americans have access to these phenomenal traditions. So, yeah. 

[00:29:52] Pam Uzzell: I'm really curious to know, do you situate the Chitras Das Institute as sort of [00:30:00] an activist- artistic institute now because of this commitment to climate change? 

[00:30:06] Celine Shein Das: You know, it's such an interesting question, because my first impulse is to say yes.

[00:30:14] But then it's like, I mean, activist, what does it mean? It's like, you know, just in many ways, teaching this tradition, performing this tradition, learning this tradition is a revolutionary act. So it depends on what you look at as activism. I remember feeling that about him on the stage. How often do you see a Brown man on stage, an Indian man captivating people in his, through his work?

[00:30:45] It just so, so profound what he did, what he... so it depends. I mean, activist in the sense that we have a platform. We have 200 students that come to us every week. Many of them, young women. So I absolutely believe that we have a responsibility to them. We featured in our community organization spotlight last year Rewire organization, which addresses gender inequity and gender bias discrimination.

[00:31:20] Just a local organization in San Ramon run by Roohi Agarwal and Yamini Dixit and others. So that responsibility weighs heavy and is an honor, is an honor, too. So we have to be really thoughtful about how we do this and bringing someone like Alka for younger women to hear her voice is so powerful. She's such a powerful person and artist.

[00:31:50] And the collaborative nature in that way is also activists, too, right?. It's, it's that responsibility. It's that feeling. It's that idea that this is not about me or you. This is about a legacy. This is about a community. This is about people who this art form, you know, uh, is, belongs to, belongs to the people, which is in part why we've been touring this work in India.

[00:32:19] And my late husband brought me into incredible spaces in India. I was fortunate to travel with them, him there, at least 14, 15 times and spend probably two years of my life there connecting with the incredible arts community there. And that connection must be maintained, must remain. And this, you know, this art form is of the people of India, right?

[00:32:43] So that connection is, is critical. And he was brought, I, you know, it was opportunity, which came a lot from colonialism. So. In many ways, he was here for that reason. When you have an artist of that caliber out of the country, those in the country deserve to have, you know, continued access to it and those relationships to the people of India must always be maintained.

[00:33:08] Pam Uzzell: Well, in terms of this particular message and the way that it was conveyed, how was it received by audiences in India? And then I'm going to ask the same thing about in America. 

[00:33:19] Celine Shein Das: Sure. It was incredible. It was incredible. So we had, this was, you know, it was intense. We had a three city tour within six days, starting in Delhi, then to Mumbai, and then to Kolkata, which Kolkata is, is, uh, Pandit Chitra Das' hometown, and I spent many, many years there.

[00:33:41] Our first show in Delhi. What was so spectacular was that it was so understood, appreciated, loved, well received. I mean, the reactions and we've got incredible reviews. But it was more hearing from people who had known, uh, my late husband for decades, brought their children. I mean, there was one woman whose daughter was autistic.

[00:34:07] And at one point in the show, I heard a loud sound and, and I didn't know, you know, what it was and it's fine. But afterwards she said, you know, how silent she sat throughout most of it and how rare that was. That is, that's, I mean, giving access like that. Then another student here who's in our youth company, her grandmother came in a wheelchair.

[00:34:31] So it's, yes, the national reviews, the fact that our Mumbai show sold out this fantastic, vibrant, uh, venue called G5A in Mumbai, G5A found foundation, young people, you know, in India, just artists. It's just so exciting. And then in Kolkata, you know, at the venue where he performed so many times, or Shabaka is the Bengali se.

[00:34:58] It was [00:35:00] amazing and it was incredible. It felt so true that it was so well received and understood there. That was just like, you know, I expected that, but the actual manifestation of that and the connection through the people is just amazing. Amazing. It means so much. I also had my daughters there and that was so important for them to be able to, they lost their father at one and a half and three and a half.

[00:35:27] So to connect to their own culture, uh his heritage to see these dancers and the art, the music received in that way was was amazing 

[00:35:37] Pam Uzzell: Wow, just curious to know about the audiences and the reception in the places in the United States where you've performed this. 

[00:35:46] Celine Shein Das: So we premiered 'Invoking the River' in 2022 And then we presented it again in 2023 and we premiered it at ODC Theater in San Francisco in 2022 and 2023. We did ODC theater and added the Hammer Theater in San Jose because so much of our community is there.

[00:36:05] And, um, the difference between the ODC theater audience and the Hammer audience was so interesting because you had so many more larger Indian population in San Jose, in the audience. There were so many things that Charlotte put in the piece that people resonated with and in part was just the technique, you know, the technique.

[00:36:29] I always say that if you see something that has the name Pandit Chitrish Das, the technique should always put your jaw on the floor. The level of, of percussive footwork, of pirouettes, of just control, power, grace, all of the spectrum and range. And what, what those who don't know the Lyakari, the rhythmic complexity of what the dancers are doing is always really, really high level, incredibly high level.

[00:36:59] I think when people see it and they've not been exposed to it, it's kind of like, wow, it's not that they're not appreciating. But it's also culturally in India, there's, you know, not that fourth wall, particularly in the traditional solo, like people will say, they'll respond. It's a very interactive tradition.

[00:37:19] So I think that's also present. And then in the end of the piece, the dancers, take cloths and they form a river, which is they're invoking Satiswati and Satiswati is the goddess of music and learning, but she's also a mythical river that doesn't really exist and or depending on on your perspective. So people understood that Charlotte through those, the cloth was invoking Satiswati.

[00:37:51] And so that was really remarkable to see kind of the, you know, cause again, Charlotte, she's not Indian, but 23 years of training and always going deep in knowledge, always exploring. That was what his criteria was. And that you give back to the next generation. If you were going to learn this tradition, you had to hand it down.

[00:38:12] That was, that was essential. So for people to get that was remarkable. 

[00:38:18] Pam Uzzell: I'm so glad you said that because that was one of my favorite parts, but I had no idea what the actual meaning behind it was. It just was visually a beautiful way to create this idea of a river, but I'm so glad you said more about the meaning behind that.

[00:38:36] In terms of climate, in terms of art, I'm curious about a couple of things. The first one is how did you grow from this experience? And the second one is what do you hope people take away from this experience of seeing, of seeing this kind of, I do call it artistic activism, but you don't have to call it that in terms of climate and all the other things you mentioned.

[00:39:05] Celine Shein Das: If somebody were to say a definition, I I think this would fit a definition of artistic activism, certainly. I think what, how it changed me is really, I mean, it's stunning to see what Charlotte Moraga has created. We didn't know when he passed, what would happen. You know, he, he nurtured her. He had her perform solo on many, many productions, but it was, we didn't know what would happen.

[00:39:38] And, you know, there's an element of faith in him and what he did that I think is validated through this process. I think Alka... I always tell Alka that she's a gift from him because they work together and having her voice and she's more than a friend and a collaborator. She's really somebody I go [00:40:00] to for for insight and perspective in in this work.

[00:40:05] So that has has changed me to be able to hear her. See her just incredible creations. Utsav's have you know impacted me so much by seeing you know he started in India and has just followed his own path and and really is just so deep in the idea of expressing Indian classical music from the piano and just is such an open person.

[00:40:31] But I think the most impactful has been the dancers. And watching them, I knew these young women as children. Um, they trained with him and they continue to train with Charlotte. And I mean that these women are producing such powerful work. Again, it's about faith. It's about faith. And what he brought an in the work and what, what this art form is capable of giving and what, what resides within these dancers that study with him.

[00:41:10] And now we have these company coming out of Chitresh Das Institute. It's a very exciting time because it was a process getting here. I mean, his passing. Everything was hugely traumatic on, on multiple levels as one can imagine. But I think that seeing how even in his loss, what he's created, it just created a whole other growth and evolution.

[00:41:36] Pam Uzzell: And then what do you want for audiences who see this, you know, maybe somebody who doesn't know anything about the dance form, anything about the history, but just come in and see it and experience it. What would you hope that they take away from this in terms of their own relationship to water, to the planet?

[00:42:03] What would you hope for that? 

[00:42:06] Celine Shein Das: Yeah, I mean, I think that it's, it's multi pronged. I would definitely want for, you know, anyone who hasn't had exposure to Kathak, to dance, to, to, to Indian classical dance, to be curious. I think being curious is essential to, to ask questions, to put oneself in places they may not 

[00:42:32] expect to find themselves. And I think that that would hopefully naturally lead to how can we, so this is crazy, the situation that we're in. It's insane. And our options are to turn off or to find a way to engage. I think part of it is that, you know, activism, if you want to call it that, or just getting involved

[00:43:00] or engaged is so intimidating, but there are ways that are organic for everybody. And so to take some time, I mean, that if you have that luxury, you know, it's, it's, I think we have to be aware of class and all of these other things that are integral. And so if you have more resources, take a little more time and to see what we can do because I do think that everybody has a power and you know one of the people that I admire profoundly and learned tremendously from is Vandana Shiva and she is an environmental activist Also a physicist in India.

[00:43:39] And, um, she said there was, I don't know if it was like a, you know, upcoming podcast or some teaser of sorts. And it was like, I am hopeful. And I was like, I need to hear why she is hopeful. I'm tuning into that. And she said, I'm hopeful because of people power. And that was like, okay, okay. So, you know, what we can do together, you know, and arts, again, builds that community.

[00:44:04] You are bringing people together. A dance in a classroom brings people together. Dance in a theater brings people together, music in a theater. So this idea of intersectionality and seeing dance and politics and community and this or that as separate entities, they all are integrated. They all are a part of one another.

[00:44:25] So I think. Seeing that connectivity as much as possible, but I think taking yourself into a space where you can experience art. Taking yourself into a space where you can experience what you can do to, to make this world a little better is I think important and maybe sound somewhat cliche, but what else do we do?

[00:44:51] You know, we have to try. When my late husband passed, you know, I always thought of spirituality and, you know, I said, you know, I've got to read the Bhagavad Gita, you [00:45:00] know, it's like the, there's many incredible religious texts, but that one, of course, you know, the song of God and, and considered to really hold so many tenets of Hindu philosophy.

[00:45:11] And my late husband always said, Hinduism is, is a philosophy. He did not see it as a religion. He saw it as a way of life. And the main thing of the Bhagavad Gita is to do your dharma, to do your duty. And it's so complex and profound and yet not right. That we try that we do something that we see, what, what can we do beyond ourselves

[00:45:32] that is contributing something? 

[00:45:35] Pam Uzzell: Do you know when the next performance about fire is going to be performed and where? 

[00:45:43] Celine Shein Das: Yes. So it will be September 27th, 28th, 29th at ODC Theater in San Francisco. And this is Mantram and it actually explores Panchaputta, which is the five elements. So in the Indian system, you have

[00:45:59] water, fire, air, and earth, but there's the fifth, which is the space, the beyond. And so it's much more contemporary. So Alam Khan uses Sarod, but other, he's actually brought kind of a stellar group of different artists to create the music and then as I said involves the the members of the of Chitresh Das Dance and they dance partly on resonant boxes.

[00:46:24] Those boxes also transform into being part of the set. It's really, really an amazing piece and you know, I think It was COVID times when we premiered this. Hardly anybody was coming to theaters. Very few people saw this. And as I said, Charlotte is going to be able to complete it. Um, so I'm really excited, but I think it's actually the actual premiere.

[00:46:49] Pam Uzzell: Okay. Well, can you let people know where they can find out more about, um, the Chitresh Das Institute and keep an eye out for that performance? 

[00:47:02] Celine Shein Das: Yes, so our website is chitreshdasinstitute. org, C H I T R E S H D A S, institute, but we are also very active on social media, Instagram, Facebook, even TikTok, because it's about the next generation.

[00:47:24] So people can find information in all those places. 

[00:47:28] Pam Uzzell: Okay. Well, Celine, thank you so much for coming on. I was so excited to talk about this performance. It was truly, truly astounding. And I'm looking forward to the next one. And I would like to be in the audience this time, not just watching a beautiful videotape of it, but I'd like to be in the audience.

[00:47:52] So thank you. 

[00:47:53] Celine Shein Das: Oh, you are so welcome. It's really... You know, I had a conversation with Alka the other day and, and art really, you know, I think your podcast Art Heals All Wounds. I mean, we have a tough life in general. I mean many benefits as well. But it really is incredible to be able to offer this. So please do join us and I'm very, very excited.

[00:48:19] Audio from 'Invoking the River': I am power., 

[00:48:23] I am force. 

[00:48:27] I give birth.

[00:48:31] I wash away your sins. 

[00:48:34] I am the source.

[00:48:40] I am the blood in your veins. 

[00:48:44] Life begins in me. 

[00:48:46] And they say, 

[00:48:48] When all life ends, 

[00:48:50] I'll remain.

[00:48:56] (music)

[00:49:54] You're listening to Art Heals All Wounds.[00:50:00] 

[00:50:21] Thank you so much to Celine Shein Das for this inside look at the Chitresh Das Dance performance of 'Invoking the River'. I really hope that you'll look up the Chitresh Das Institute and get on their newsletter. Chitresh Das Dance have a performance coming up in San Francisco, September 27th through 29th, 2024.

[00:50:43] I'll put a link to that in the show notes. If a performance comes near where you live, don't skip the chance to go see it.. I promise that you won't be disappointed in the way that they perform their stories that are meeting the moment. 

[00:51:00] Do you have a story about how arts and creativity play a role in your life? I'd love to share it on the show. Just go to my website ArtHealsAllWoundsPodcast. com and click on the button that says leave a message for Pam at Art Heals All Wounds. I need to get some more of these in. Right now my voicemail story pot is completely empty. So don't be shy. Go ahead and leave me your story. 

[00:51:27] And, if you feel able to support this show with a small donation, there's also a place on my website to do that as well. Just click on the link or widget to buy me a coffee. This show is completely independent, so anything you leave goes a long way in paying for the expenses of putting it together. 

[00:51:48] Thanks for listening. The music you've heard in this podcast is by Ketsa and Lobo Loco. You also heard some of the sounds of the performance of 'Invoking the River', provided by Chitresh Das Dance.

[00:52:03] This podcast was edited by Iva Hristova.