In this episode of Art Heals All Wounds, I interview longtime friend Gwen Whittle, a supervising sound editor and three-time Academy Award nominee for the films Avatar, Tron Legacy, and Avatar, The Way of Water. We discuss Gwen's journey from New York to San Francisco, her experiences in the sound editing industry, and the importance of sound in storytelling. We both share stories of belonging and the impact of travel on our perspectives and the importance of listening.
Don't forget to go to my website and leave me YOUR story of belonging to feature on a future episode!
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● Art Heals All Wounds Website
In this episode of Art Heals All Wounds, I interview longtime friend Gwen Whittle, a supervising sound editor and three-time Academy Award nominee for the films Avatar, Tron Legacy, and Avatar, The Way of Water. We discuss Gwen's journey from New York to San Francisco, her experiences in the sound editing industry, and the importance of sound in storytelling. We both share stories of belonging and the impact of travel on our perspectives and the importance of listening.
Don't forget to go to my website and leave me YOUR story of belonging to feature on a future episode!
Buy Me a Coffee!
Follow Gwen!
Gwen's Page on IMDb
Follow Me!
● Art Heals All Wounds Website
[00:00:00] Pam Uzzell: Do you believe art can change the world? So do I! On this show, we meet artists whose work is doing just that. Welcome to Art Heals All Wounds. I'm your host, Pam Uzzell.
[00:00:48] I moved to the Bay Area in 1988 right after graduating from college with no plan. All I really wanted to do was to get on a plane and head back to the East Coast. In fact, I did do that. I bought a plane ticket after just a few days of being here and went back to Rhode Island and kind of couch surfed while I tried to wrap my head around making a move to New York.
[00:01:13] I wanted to work in film. Doing what specifically? I had no idea. After a few weeks of this, I got a call from my parents. A film producer and editor who was a friend of a friend of a friend who I had met and who knew that I wanted to work in film, had called them. He was looking for an assistant editor on a film he was cutting.
[00:01:37] It was low budget. And there was no salary, but it would be something. Some kind of experience to put on a resume when I did make my move to New York. And so, I got my first job working on a film directed by and starring the late, great James Hong. The editor who hired me was Garrick Huey. Although he didn't pay me money, I got lots of other things.
[00:02:04] Garrick didn't work on blockbuster movies, but he had a lot of integrity, which I really couldn't appreciate as well then as I do now. And Garrick was very strategic. He could have rented editing space in lots of low rent places in the area, but he rented his editing space at the Saul Zaentz Film Center. More commonly known as Fantasy to the people that worked there.
[00:02:30] This building was one of the few hubs of high end film work in the Bay Area. Garrick always said to me, you've got to be in the place where things happen. Otherwise, nobody in the film community will know who you are. His choice of words was so spot on. In those days San Francisco didn't really have a film industry.
[00:02:52] It had a film community. After a couple of low and no budget jobs at Fantasy, I found my way into this community. And what we did was sound. The people I met had worked on films that I studied in film school. The Bay Area was, of course, home to iconic filmmakers like Francis Ford Coppola, George Lucas, and Phil Kauffman.
[00:03:17] But it was also home to the picture editor and sound designer Walter Murch, whose name was familiar to me from his brilliant work on Apocalypse Now.
[00:03:27] Right across the bay in Marin County was the sound designer Ben Burtt, who created an entire sound universe with his work on Star Wars. The first paying job I got was working as an apprentice editor on the sound crew of Dead Poets Society under the late Alan Splett, who had been the sound designer for many of David Lynch's films.
[00:03:49] And I'm not even listing the incredible sound mixers who worked in the Bay Area then, too. These sound nerds really set the bar. For a good chunk of time, directors from all over the country sent their films to the Bay Area for sound editing just to get that special touch.
[00:04:04] I don't think it's hyperbole at all to say that the work done in the Bay Area at that time changed the way we listened to movies.
[00:04:14] I stopped working in post production sound after about six years. When I look back, that period of my life has kind of a rosy glow around it. Even though I never felt like being a sound editor was exactly my calling, I became and still am a sound nerd.
[00:04:32] It was such an amazing experience to be a part of this community with some of the most creative,
[00:04:38] fun, and interesting people I've ever met. Today I'm sharing a conversation with someone who was among the first people to welcome me into the community of Bay Area Sound Editors.
[00:04:50] Gwendolyn Yates Whittle is a Post Production Sound Supervisor and Sound Editor. We are also longtime friends from way back when we were [00:05:00] both 20 somethings trying to figure out what we wanted from film. Gwen is very modest, so I will fill you in. She has an incredible imagination for how sound can shape a story. She's multi award nominated and winning for her work in sound. It's been so great to see the work she's done, and really exciting to see her being recognized for it.
[00:05:24] Hi, Gwen, thank you so much for being on Art Heals All Wounds. Can you start by telling us who you are and what you do?
[00:05:35] Gwen Whittle: I'm Gwen Whittle, and I'm a supervising sound editor, usually working for Skywalker Sound, and I specialize in the word department, dialogue, and ADR. Loop group background voices.
[00:05:47] Pam Uzzell: Some people listening to this will know what ADR is, but can you explain what it is?
[00:05:53] Gwen Whittle: I don't know what it really stands for. Some people say it's automated dialogue replacement. Some people say artificial dialogue replacement. I don't think anybody really knows, but basically the idea is you're shooting a scene in a movie and say you're shooting a scene where people are wearing corsets and it's set in the 1800s in England.
[00:06:13] And an airplane goes overhead. And so clearly they didn't have airplanes in the 1800s, but the lighting is great, the costumes are great, the performances are perfect. And the person is saying, Oh, I'll meet you at the store tomorrow. And the plane's gone over the top of it. And there's no alternate takes that have that exact performance.
[00:06:33] So the actor will come into the studio and they'll hear themselves saying. Oh, we'll have to go take me to at the store tomorrow. They'll watch themselves on the screen so they can get back into the whole mood of where they were. And they'll hear beep, beep, beep. Oh, I'll meet you at the store tomorrow.
[00:06:47] And that's ADR. And then we cut it in. We make sure the backgrounds are all beautiful. Like it was all shot the exact same place, exact same time. So when you're watching the movie at home or in a theater, we hope in a theater, you never even notice. And there's no airplane. Magically. That's what ADR is.
[00:07:03] Pam Uzzell: Gwen and I have known each other A really, really long time and when we started out, I think we both had so many aspirations and if you live in the Bay Area. You find yourself working in sound, no matter what you thought you were going to do before that. One memory I have is that you were going to be a picture editor on some movie about the Sacramento River.
[00:07:32] And you asked me if I wanted to be your assistant, and we were going to go and live. Somewhere, maybe Sacramento, I don't know, because this was before you could work remotely. There was no such thing as remote work. And it was like, Oh, this is my chance to go do picture editing. Is that what you wanted to do originally?
[00:07:55] Gwen Whittle: That's funny. I hadn't thought about that in a very long time. Picture was just kind of where I didn't even really think about sound. I took a sound class at NYU and I was actually very good at it, but it just didn't seem like where the heart of the story was because I thought, well, if you don't have a picture, you don't have a movie.
[00:08:12] Which is wrong, because you can make a movie completely with sound. It just, it just didn't occur to me. And so I thought, oh, you know, I'll go work in picture. I like picture. But in Northern California, the sound community is where it is. To make a living, you kind of have to work in sound, unless you're Walter Murch.
[00:08:28] There's only one Walter Murch, so. Or unless you're going to work in documentaries, which is a very different thing, which Pam, you know way more about than I do. But that time I got offered that, that weird little job in Sacramento, it would have been a really. It would have been a really fun adventure. And I think we would have done it, but the project on their side fell apart.
[00:08:50] So I don't, I don't think it's because we weren't ready or willing, but it really, I mean, mind you, I would have been in way over my head. I just would have just because I'd been a picture assistant before I did, you know, that kind of stuff. And it was fine being a picture assistant is very different than being a picture editor.
[00:09:07] So it's good that it didn't work out because I probably wouldn't be sitting here talking to you about these things. If I'd done that, just, Oh God, I'm out of the business. I'm done.
[00:09:16] Pam Uzzell: I know. And then, especially then, there were two and a half main places to work. Fantasy, Skywalker Sound, and Zoetrope.
[00:09:28] Gwen Whittle: Is Zoetrope the half place?
[00:09:30] Pam Uzzell: Yes, because they were not always cutting something there. But if you weren't there in those places, then you kind of lost your spot.
[00:09:39] Gwen Whittle: It is true. I mean, again, I think, you know, I've said it many times before. I've been so, so, so lucky. Mind you, luck is also what you make of it. If an opportunity is presented to you, to you, it's, it's your choice how you handle it.
[00:09:54] You either take it and run with it or, or you walk away. Like we walked away from the Sacramento job. That's an opportunity [00:10:00] that we didn't take. And so that changed, you know, changes things. But I was very lucky that when I landed in San Francisco, my first job was a picture assistant, which is another reason why I thought I'd be.
[00:10:10] Going to picture as a low budget feature had just started shooting and it was Laura Dern's first movie. So it was all just like, Oh, sure I can do that. I mean, a little bit of dumb luck and wouldn't kind of be able to pick stuff up on the fly. And then after that, I didn't really know how to find a job.
[00:10:27] And I was lucky enough from the sound crew on that job. Kind of work a little tiny bit on this film called On the Edge and through that I met a few more people and then when Unbearable Lightness of Being which was like a real feature and had real crew and a real budget One of the editors Barbara McBain was looking for an assistant and I was on a list And she interviewed me, and she hired me, and that was my in.
[00:10:54] It's a small community, but there was room for me, and it was right place and right time, and that's luck. How did you get in, Pam? I don't even remember. You just sort of arrived, and it was great.
[00:11:05] Pam Uzzell: I volunteered on this very low budget, straight to foreign sales martial arts, like, kung fu movie. Wow. And, and, and at Fantasy.
[00:11:16] We were working at Fantasy and this wonderful person named Garrick Huey, who I have not seen in so many decades. I worked for free as many people did on their first jobs, but on a low budget free thing, you get to do a lot of things that are way above what a beginner should be doing. Then after that, it's exactly what you're talking about.
[00:11:38] You meet somebody else who needs somebody else. You get to know people, and when they need somebody extra, they'd rather hire someone they've met.
[00:11:46] Gwen Whittle: Always.
[00:11:47] Pam Uzzell: Let's back up, though. Before you came to California, what was going on with you?
[00:11:51] Gwen Whittle: I was born in Brooklyn, New York. We lived in Staten Island, but my parents split up when I was pretty young, which is probably better for everybody.
[00:11:58] But because of that, um, traveled around a lot. My dad lived in Toronto, lived in LA. He lived in. New York and my mom moved around a lot. We used to move every year. So when I finished high school, I was an exchange student for a year in Germany, which was difficult, but important. And I'm really glad I did it.
[00:12:17] And when I came back, I went to Northeastern university in Boston. And it was good, but I don't think the school was at its best point at that time. It was work study. So you work, and then you go to school, then you work. It was a big commuter school, and I had a hard time, kind of like a reverse culture shop coming back from Germany.
[00:12:35] I had a hard time finding my footing. So I transferred to Suffolk University because I decided I wanted to be a pre vet. So I needed to take calculus, I needed to take the science stuff. And then I realized that's probably not going to be the best idea. And I really I wanted to do film, so I transferred to Boston University where I was pre vet and film double major.
[00:12:57] And then I realized, well, that's not going to work. So I applied to NYU because my sister was going to go to New York for grad school. So then I'll just go with, I'll go to New York with her. And so then I graduated from NYU. So I went to four universities in four years and I love New York. I just love being there.
[00:13:14] I love the energy. I love the whole thing about it. But one night my sister didn't really love her grad school and I was graduating and I was like, what am I going to do next? What do you want to do? And she said, well, let's just pick a place to just go there because we can always come back. So most people who graduated from film school probably would have gone to Los Angeles or stayed in New York.
[00:13:32] No, I went to San Francisco. But again, I was lucky because Smooth Talk was just starting filming. And I just kind of, I thought I would go back to New York because I loved it so much. I didn't really like San Francisco when I first got there. Here, everything was very slow. I thought everybody was on thorazine just like it just because it wasn't sparkly like New York, but once you started working and stuff.
[00:13:54] I just loved the people. I'm very, very happy. I stayed because. It's worked out perfectly.
[00:14:01] Pam Uzzell: Well, first of all, I have to say that the vet film double major is so you. And so, so funny that you would imagine that somehow you would be both.
[00:14:16] Gwen Whittle: I told everyone I was going to make mutual of Omaha movies.
[00:14:22] Pam Uzzell: And then it is really true. I did not come from New York, but I was had been on the East Coast and I moved to the Bay Area and I thought, Oh my God, it's so slow out here. It's maddening. And I had like a two year plan where I was going to stay out here two years and then go back and join all my other classmates who had gone to New York.
[00:14:43] But then after two years, you have slowed down and Yeah. You're just like, Oh, I get it. This is sanity.
[00:14:54] Gwen Whittle: Although I have to say, I go back, I've gone back to New York many times to work and stuff and [00:15:00] everybody in New York walks as quickly as I just like, Oh yes, this feels right. So I, I still walk too fast for people in San Francisco.
[00:15:07] Pam Uzzell: Yeah. For me, for sure. Cause I grew up in the South and you stroll, you don't like, well, so you know, this whole season that I'm doing is about belonging.
[00:15:17] And as I'm listening to your story, I'm imagining changing schools every year. And I'm talking about not college, but before that, how much you moved around always being the new person.
[00:15:30] Gwen Whittle: Yeah. Maybe because of that. There was even when I was like, I lived in Boston for three years, but I think I moved every year to a different neighborhood because if it felt too comfortable, it felt.
[00:15:43] I, it felt weird. Like if I started recognizing people on the street, which most people like and want, I'd say, Oh, no, it's time to move. It was a weird sort of side effect, maybe of moving so much.
[00:15:54] Pam Uzzell: I think so. I think so. And I'm not going to dig too deeply into Germany, but I did that too. I took a year off and it does.
[00:16:05] Or for me at least it took me like six months to acclimate and then you have another six months to really truly enjoy it and then it's done.
[00:16:15] Gwen Whittle: But then coming home because I was such a different person when I came home, I mean I wasn't a jerk or anything, but I was definitely an American girl and you just assume a certain comfort in the world.
[00:16:27] And when I got to Germany. No one cared. And that was a really important thing to feel like, Oh yeah. Okay, great. You're American. It was before the internet, the area that I lived in, there was a British army base, but people didn't really speak a lot of English. So I had to learn German to survive. No one cared and I couldn't say anything to anybody.
[00:16:51] It was kind of like being a full grown infant. I really didn't belong. There was no belonging at all. So it, you kind of think, okay. What is it about me, personally, that's going to make people want to engage? What is it that, because you, as a human, you have to, you need to engage. Even if you're, even if it's just a person in the grocery store.
[00:17:14] People need people. You have to figure out what's important about you that's going to make you be able to cooperate and live in the world, and that's kind of what that year in Germany did.
[00:17:28] Pam Uzzell: That's so interesting. Can you say what that was that you figured out?
[00:17:32] Gwen Whittle: Uh, well, I was no longer an arrogant American, and I didn't even think I was, but the world did not revolve around me.
[00:17:40] I mean, that's why travel is great, because you think of, you find the other viewpoints for the other cultures, and they're not wrong, they're just different, and there's usually something, some kernel of something in there that, that's worth Taking forward and carrying on so I mean there's some stuff about Germany that no, I don't care about but other parts of it are They take they take care of their elders in a way that Americans don't the kind of thing They've they've spent way too much time cleaning That's a different subject
[00:18:12] Pam Uzzell: Well, it's funny I mean I had similar realizations about my place as an American in the world and the place of America in the world and being able to see it from the outside. It was invaluable and I wouldn't be who I am now if I had not done that.
[00:18:32] Gwen Whittle: Yeah, me neither.
[00:18:34] Pam Uzzell: I mean It was hard. The first part was hard and then when I had to come home I It was devastating.
[00:18:40] Gwen Whittle: You're a very different person and then you have to try and fit in to what people knew you before and you're not that person anymore.
[00:18:47] Pam Uzzell: Right. Right. Yeah. I'm just going to brag about you a little bit.
[00:18:54] Gwen Whittle: Okay.
[00:18:57] Pam Uzzell: I'm going to mention that you are a three time Academy Award nominee. And, in my opinion, should have been a three time Academy Award winner, but I will not be bitter on this show.
[00:19:10] Gwen Whittle: It's very nice to be at the party.
[00:19:11] Pam Uzzell: Well, yes, but I, I am bitter. I will be bitter on this show because I do watch the Academy Awards and I only watch because I know some people who are nominated every year and I knew you were going to win.
[00:19:24] Gwen Whittle: It's funny. Many people spend, you know, as a kid, Oh, I want to win an Academy Award. That was, I mean, it was never the driving force for me. The fact that it happened at all was astonishingly wonderful. The first time I was like, I mean, my, I think my head exploded. It was just like, it was like the, like, how can it possibly be me who's nominated?
[00:19:49] I mean, it was, it was an amazing thing. And I thank Chris Boyes forever and always for asking me to co -sup Avatar, the first Avatar with him and the second one, but it was not the driving force. And then so to be [00:20:00] invited, get to put on the very, very lovely dresses and tons of makeup, and you don't feel like yourself and just be part of it.
[00:20:08] It's a, uh, very lucky and it's really fun. Win, no win. It's really nice to be there. But thank you for being bitter.
[00:20:17] Pam Uzzell: I'll be bitter for you. I do want to talk about though, what you do, because the other thing that's amazing for me is that on some of my documentaries, even though they're very small, independent documentaries, you have supervised the sound.
[00:20:31] I just want to talk about what that feels from my perspective, because I remember the first one, which really truly is like the lowest budget. It was my graduate school thesis film.
[00:20:42] Gwen Whittle: Welcome to Malverne?
[00:20:43] Pam Uzzell: No, the goat lady one. Some Call It Heaven.
[00:20:46] Gwen Whittle: Oh, I love the goat lady. I love the goat lady.
[00:20:50] Pam Uzzell: That was my thesis film for graduate school.
[00:20:53] And you know, you edit a film and you are so sick of it by a certain point. And I remember sitting with you and you spotting the sound, which can you explain what spotting the sound is?
[00:21:09] Gwen Whittle: So you sit with the director, um, documentary is usually pretty different than a feature. Like for instance, say Tomorrowland with Brad Bird.
[00:21:17] I spotted that with Gary Rydstrom, who's brilliant. Genius supervisor of all time. And best way to describe spotting is you're with the director of the film, and they say, How can we help you tell this story with sound? And then you have to hear what the director's thinking, because clearly you've been sitting with it for a long time, so we don't know necessarily what mood you have in your head for this kind of thing or the music's going to change or because We could make this situation you and me talking here.
[00:21:48] We could make it sound like we're in the tropics like that. We could make it sound creepy as crap like just scary and awful and sound sound affects the mood
[00:21:59] Pam Uzzell: I remember the spotting session for this little film and when I worked in sound, I was always in the position of an assistant or an apprentice, even, and I'd never been in on a spotting session before.
[00:22:11] And really, in my mind, it was like, okay, we're going to look at the sound that's there. And improve it. But what was so incredible about doing this spotting session with you is that you could hear all the sounds that weren't there. Like everything outside of the frame that turns this little two dimensional video into a world.
[00:22:36] And I remember one place, you're like, Oh, let's put in a chiming church bell here. And I was like, Oh, yes, yes, a church bell. The sound is what creates the sense of place in a film.
[00:22:49] Gwen Whittle: It's true. And I mean, it also, it informs the subjectivity of what you're trying to show. If you have a close up of a person and all you hear is everything except them, you don't hear them breathing, you don't hear their presence at all.
[00:23:05] It's a very different feel than if all you hear is their breathing and you don't hear anything else. So it changes your, your relationship to the story that's being told.
[00:23:16] Pam Uzzell: Right. It's like the psychological element of film.
[00:23:20] Gwen Whittle: Yeah. I mean, clearly you can do that with lighting too, and lighting and performance, all that stuff is very important.
[00:23:26] But the sound is a little bit like, if you're building a house, it's the finishing touches. It puts the hem on the story, and it makes it so that it's going to sit in the right place that it's supposed to sit. I should give sound a little bit more credit. It's more than just the head. George Lucas says it's half the story.
[00:23:42] Pam Uzzell: I would even give it 51 percent and 49 percent because I've seen some amazing stories and if the sound isn't right, you know, you have to have suspension of disbelief to enter the story of a film, and if the sound isn't right, it takes so much longer to achieve that.
[00:24:01] Gwen Whittle: It's true, it takes you out, right.
[00:24:03] Pam Uzzell: The other thing too is that you work in the most humble of, of audio work.
[00:24:10] Gwen Whittle: If you don't notice it, then I've done my job perfectly.
[00:24:13] Pam Uzzell: Exactly. No one will ever walk out of a movie and say, Oh, that was the most incredible ADR I have ever heard.
[00:24:23] Gwen Whittle: Because you're not supposed to notice it.
[00:24:25] Pam Uzzell: Exactly. Exactly. So you're making it completely perfect, but again, that perfection is what allows us to stay in the world of the story.
[00:24:36] One thing I'm thinking as we're sitting here talking is that when you are approaching a sound editing job, you have to adapt to what the director wants, what they're envisioning, what the story calls for. And I think you got those skills from having to be in a new school every year from going to a foreign country.
[00:24:57] Don't you think so? Don't you think that that made [00:25:00] you more intuitive in a certain way and more able to really feel out a situation?
[00:25:06] Gwen Whittle: Maybe. But also part of it is, listening, I mean, everybody who is a hearing person, listening is something you take for granted. You have to learn how to listen to the nuances of the world around you.
[00:25:20] Do you really hear it every time you see the trees moving? What are the sounds in my house when I'm the only one home that are annoying? The refrigerator buzz. I mean, the, the, you know, the toilet leaking, that kind of thing. What are the sounds that make you feel good? Firecracking, crickets, that kind of thing.
[00:25:36] What makes it, you know, uneasy and you start realizing how those things can affect what you're watching. I mean, I had to learn how to listen too. And maybe those other experiences helped. And also, I mean, I My husband gets mad at me sometimes because we'll be in a restaurant and I won't really be listening to him, I'll be listening to all the conversations.
[00:25:59] Because I, because I, you know, you have to fill in the, a lot of times you have to fill in the people world, not just the sonic world. And, I mean, what does it sound like if you're in a A kid's playground in the city, or if you're at a kid's playground in the country. Summertime is the sound of kids in a pool, screaming, you know, outside.
[00:26:22] Uh, wintertime is sort of more hush tones, kind of, you know, because everything's inside and it's a little bit, um, everyone's got more clothing on, it's a little bit more padded, that kind of thing.
[00:26:33] Pam Uzzell: Before we leave, can you just say the three films you were nominated for your Academy Award? First one was for Avatar. The second one was for Tron Legacy, which was actually exactly one year after the first nomination. So I got to go to the party two years in a row, which was very fun. And the third one was for Avatar Way of Water, which was this past year. And you were also nominated for two other awards for Avatar.
[00:27:02] Gwen Whittle: One was for a BAFTA, which is a British Academy Award.
[00:27:05] The other thing that was kind of awesome that happened this year is that I got a career achievement award from the Motion Picture Sound Editors, which was really very, very, very nice.
[00:27:16] Pam Uzzell: And it was so fantastic to see you in your red carpet gowns.
[00:27:21] Gwen Whittle: Three different outfits, three, three different outfits in six weeks.
[00:27:26] My dress designer, Nazli Eslami, god, oh, she was just fantastic. If you're ever going to dress up, it's for the Academy Awards. Yes. Right? The British Academy Awards. Or a Career Achievement Award. And I had to do all three in six weeks, and she made three completely different dresses, completely different looks.
[00:27:43] So I felt Not that I look anything like Barbie, but it was a little bit like Barbie changing her clothes all the time.
[00:27:50] Pam Uzzell: You looked really amazing and it was really fun to see that.
[00:27:54] Gwen Whittle: So it was really fun.
[00:27:56] Pam Uzzell: That eases my bitterness.
[00:28:00] Gwen Whittle: Well, that's good. You should not be bitter, Pam. It's all good. Again, I'm very happy to have shared the awards with the people that I shared them with and to be there.
[00:28:09] And it's just a ridiculous amount of fun.
[00:28:12] Pam Uzzell: Well, Gwen, where can people find out more about you?
[00:28:17] Gwen Whittle: You can always look at IMDb, which has got a list of my very, very, very long number of years of film work, many of which Pam worked on, too, so you can see that. Not all of them are huge budgets, some of them are little, some of them are gigantic, some of them are successes, some are not, but I have a fondness for all of them, no matter what.
[00:28:36] There's always some wonderful tale to be told from all of them.
[00:28:39] Pam Uzzell: Well, thank you for being on the show.
[00:28:42] Gwen Whittle: Oh, it was a pleasure and really awesome to see you, Pam.
[00:28:44] Pam Uzzell: You're listening to Art Heals All Wounds.
[00:29:14] Thank you, Gwen Whittle, for being on the podcast. I'm going to be thinking a lot more about listening after this conversation. If you want to learn more about Gwen, look her up on IMDb. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. Interviewing Gwen, I discovered that it's really hard to interview someone you've known for such a long time.
[00:29:34] I cut out probably about 20 minutes of us laughing at inside jokes. But even if that material never made it to the podcast, it reminded me of just how overall fun it was to work with Bay Area post production folks.
[00:29:50] Do you have a story of belonging that you'd like to share? I'd love to share it on the podcast.
[00:29:55] Just go to my website, arthealsallwoundspodcast. com, and leave [00:30:00] me a voicemail. I'll share it on a future episode. Thanks for listening. The music you've heard in this podcast is by Ketsa and Lobo Loco. As always, this show was recorded using Squadcast FM.