This week I interview artists Dazié Rustin Grego-Sykes and Derrick Miller-Handley. They discuss the creation and impact of their performance piece, 'The Changer and the Changed', a performed memoir of Dazié’s lived experience, exploring issues of child sex abuse, addiction, and the experience of being Black, Queer, and HIV positive. Through this deeply personal piece, performed in a community space, Dazié and Derrick aimed to create an intimate shared experience, encompassing the transformation, complex conversations, and the delicate balance of addressing difficult topics. The duo, who form the art collective 'Bundle of Sticks', share how their long-term friendship forms the foundation of their collaborative process. They also highlight the importance of acknowledging and embracing personal histories, shaping experiences into art, and finding a sense of belonging.
00:12 Introduction to Art Heals All Wounds
00:47 Discovering Dazié Grego-Sykes and The Changer and The Changed
01:47 Experiencing The Changer and The Changed
02:19 Understanding the Impact of Art
04:19 Interview with Dazié Grego-Sykes and Derrick Miller-Handley
05:03 Introduction to the Art Collective Bundle of Sticks
07:01 The Creation and Transformation of The Changer and The Changed
15:13 The Role of Personal Journals in The Changer and The Changed
20:34 The Power of Mythology in Art
23:48 Creating a Tangible Environment
24:18 The Thin Line Between Performance and Reality
24:52 The Power of Trust and Friendship in Performance
25:21 The Real-Time Experience of Performance
26:10 The Transformational Power of Art
27:03 The Influence of Kehinde Wiley's Work
28:38 Creating New Spaces in Art
29:28 The Role of Afrofuturism in Art
32:06 The Importance of Ancestry and History
35:41 The Performers: A Deep Dive into Their Stories
38:40 The Concept of Belonging in Art
41:19 Connecting with the Audience
43:17 Where to Find More About the Artists and Their Work
44:11 Closing Remarks
Don't forget to go to my website and leave me YOUR story of belonging to feature on a future episode!
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● Art Heals All Wounds Website
This week I interview artists Dazié Rustin Grego-Sykes and Derrick Miller-Handley. They discuss the creation and impact of their performance piece, 'The Changer and the Changed', a performed memoir of Dazié’s lived experience, exploring issues of child sex abuse, addiction, and the experience of being Black, Queer, and HIV positive. Through this deeply personal piece, performed in a community space, Dazié and Derrick aimed to create an intimate shared experience, encompassing the transformation, complex conversations, and the delicate balance of addressing difficult topics. The duo, who form the art collective 'Bundle of Sticks', share how their long-term friendship forms the foundation of their collaborative process. They also highlight the importance of acknowledging and embracing personal histories, shaping experiences into art, and finding a sense of belonging.
00:12 Introduction to Art Heals All Wounds
00:47 Discovering Dazié Grego-Sykes and The Changer and The Changed
01:47 Experiencing The Changer and The Changed
02:19 Understanding the Impact of Art
04:19 Interview with Dazié Grego-Sykes and Derrick Miller-Handley
05:03 Introduction to the Art Collective Bundle of Sticks
07:01 The Creation and Transformation of The Changer and The Changed
15:13 The Role of Personal Journals in The Changer and The Changed
20:34 The Power of Mythology in Art
23:48 Creating a Tangible Environment
24:18 The Thin Line Between Performance and Reality
24:52 The Power of Trust and Friendship in Performance
25:21 The Real-Time Experience of Performance
26:10 The Transformational Power of Art
27:03 The Influence of Kehinde Wiley's Work
28:38 Creating New Spaces in Art
29:28 The Role of Afrofuturism in Art
32:06 The Importance of Ancestry and History
35:41 The Performers: A Deep Dive into Their Stories
38:40 The Concept of Belonging in Art
41:19 Connecting with the Audience
43:17 Where to Find More About the Artists and Their Work
44:11 Closing Remarks
Don't forget to go to my website and leave me YOUR story of belonging to feature on a future episode!
Buy Me a Coffee!
Follow Dazié Rustin Grego-Sykes and Derrick Miller-Handley!
Follow Me!
● Art Heals All Wounds Website
[00:00:00] Pam Uzzell: Do you believe art can change the world? So do I! On this show, we meet artists whose work is doing just that. Welcome to Art Heals All Wounds. I'm your host, Pam Uzzell.
[00:00:47] Last summer, I got an Instagram message from the poet and performer, Dazié Grego-Sykes. I'd met Dazié when I interviewed some members of the performance ensemble Skywatchers. Dazié let me know that he was performing a new work called The Changer and The Changed. So I bought a couple of tickets. My partner kept asking me.
[00:01:07] What is this performance we're going to see? I said, I don't know. He said, is it music? I don't know. Is it a play? I don't know. But I liked Dazié when I met him, and I was curious to see what kind of work he did when he wasn't performing with Skywatchers. We drove to a performance space in East Oakland, and there were people milling around not quite ready to take seats yet.
[00:01:31] We decided to go ahead and get our seats, and as always happens, my partner went way back to the second to last row and said, Hey, are these okay? And I said, Oh, look, there are seats available here in the front row. The show started. I don't know what the experience would have been like if I had been sitting in the very back.
[00:01:58] I can only say that I felt enveloped in the energy that vibrated from this performance. Dazié Grego-Sykes' The Changer and the Changed is a performed memoir of child sex abuse, addiction and the lived experience of being a Black queer man. The response to all of this for Dazié has been art. All of these things, the trauma, the joy, everything in his life, art has always been his response.
[00:02:29] And art is what powers change. In looking back through his life and embracing everything, Dazié invites us to both witness and experience change with him. I'm at a loss for words to describe how it felt, but, you know, when you see something like this and you feel the energy going through your entire body, waking you up and shaking every single molecule.
[00:02:58] I asked Dazié to come on the show to talk about The Changer and The Changed and he said he would, but that he wanted to include his collaborator on the show, the designer, Derrick Miller-Handley. Although Dazié is the primary performer of the piece, Derrick was a collaborator in shaping both the content of the performance and the space
[00:03:19] it happens in. As we waited for the performance to start, my partner and I talked about the props that were a part of the set for the show. Masks, shields, projected images. There's both a sacred and magical aspect to these objects created by Derrick that allowed Dazié to take this multi decade journey through his life.
[00:03:43] Together, Dazié Grego-Sykes and Derrick Miller-Handley are the art collective Bundle of Sticks. I was so happy to talk to both of them, not only about The Changer and The Changed, but about how their relationship as longtime friends is the foundation of their work together as artists. They found a sense of belonging based on trust, and in turn, they create work that imparts a sense of belonging to anyone lucky enough to engage with it.
[00:04:19] Hi, Dazie and Derek. Thank you so much for being on Art Heals All Wounds. Can you start by introducing yourselves? Dazie, how about you go first?
[00:04:29] Dazié Grego_Sykes: And thank you?
[00:04:30] for having us. My name is Dazié Rustin Grego, and I'm a performance artist and poet
[00:04:33] located
[00:04:34] in East Oakland,
[00:04:35] California.
[00:04:35] Dazié and Derrick: Derek, how about you?
[00:04:37] Derrick Miller-Handley: Hi, I'm Derek Miller-Handley. I
[00:04:39] am a visual artist and designer, located
[00:04:41] in Vermont, born and raised in the Bay area.
[00:04:44] Pam Uzzell: Okay. I wanted to have you both on because I saw your performance, The Changer, And the changed. And you both were behind that, even though Dazié is on the stage the whole time. [00:05:00] Derrick, you were a huge part of creating this performance as well.
[00:05:03] So I wanted to talk about that, but first tell me a little bit about your art collective. What's the name? What is it about? How did it
[00:05:13] get started?
[00:05:14] Dazié Grego_Sykes: Would you like to start, Derrick, or should I?
[00:05:15] Derrick Miller-Handley: Go
[00:05:15] ahead.
[00:05:15] Dazié Grego_Sykes: Our collective is called Bundle of
[00:05:17] Sticks, and we
[00:05:19] formed,
[00:05:21] I would say, officially named ourselves and began producing work under that name in around 2009.
[00:05:27] We'd been friends for many years, and were talking about a lot of different issues that were pertinent
[00:05:31] to us, and both were
[00:05:33] creating different forms of art out of those conversations, uh, with each other, and
[00:05:37] just, from
[00:05:38] reflecting
[00:05:38] with the world around us and started to collaborate
[00:05:42] and Derrick will create
[00:05:43] visual
[00:05:43] elements to the form of elements that I would bring first started out as
[00:05:47] simple as creating a graphic art image to go for a flyer for a production and got as as complex as where things are now, we're really speaking with
[00:05:56] one another, impacting one another, and seeing visual art and poetry and performance in conversation with each other.
[00:06:03] Pam Uzzell: Derrick, what would you add to that?
[00:06:05] Derrick Miller-Handley: I would add that the, uh, the
[00:06:06] nature
[00:06:07] of the collaboration is
[00:06:08] one where there's definitely a conversation
[00:06:09] that happens between those two, modalities of art making, And our collaborations are
[00:06:14] very much rooted in our
[00:06:15] friendship, our ability to be
[00:06:17] really vulnerable with one another and, to go places that we might not otherwise be able to go.
[00:06:22] Through other types of collaboration. So, Bundle of Sticks, while
[00:06:25] it's also like a, it's a bit of a double entendre with reference to the word faggot being a bundle of sticks, and us
[00:06:32] being queer men. Also, it being in reference to the idea of a bundle of sticks being stronger than each
[00:06:38] individual one.
[00:06:39] So really drawing in and pulling in that idea of that collaboration.
[00:06:44] Pam Uzzell: Yeah, I love that. I was going to ask about the name and if the double entendre was meant, but I love the second meaning of, that it's stronger than just a single stick. I also thought about this idea that it's can be used to start a fire.
[00:07:00] Derrick Miller-Handley: Absolutely.
[00:07:01] Pam Uzzell: I've seen the performance of The Changer and The Changed, but can you describe it?
[00:07:08] And again, whoever wants to go first?
[00:07:11] just give people who haven't seen it an idea of what this show is.
[00:07:15] Derrick Miller-Handley: Why don't you take
[00:07:15] this one, Dazié?
[00:07:16] Dazié Grego_Sykes: I think the, the tagline,
[00:07:19] two sentence version of it would be to say
[00:07:21] that
[00:07:21] The Changer and the
[00:07:21] Changed is a retrospective memoir,
[00:07:24] And a personal
[00:07:26] mythology.
[00:07:27] It essentially looks at my performance life
[00:07:30] over
[00:07:31] my career up till now, my personal life up till now, and the spirituality
[00:07:37] and mythologies that
[00:07:37] I've created and have created with Derrick to support the journey that has taken place over that, period of time.
[00:07:44] Instead of having
[00:07:45] a biography, I think what we chose to do was look at the people, places, and things that
[00:07:51] impacted me most in life that caused change to occur
[00:07:55] Pam Uzzell: As someone who saw this, I will say that they are really shocking. Not shocking like, Oh, that's terrible. But shocking. in how personal and vulnerable many of them were. Derrick, I know that you had a lot to do with creating this space. I'm going to put it that way. You guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but it wasn't just Dazié there performing.
[00:08:22] There was also a space that was made for this performance. Can you talk about that, a little bit or steer me back in the right direction if that's not how you would describe what you did?
[00:08:31] Derrick Miller-Handley: I that is how I would describe, part of what my contribution was. I would take it back to the beginning when,
[00:08:38] Dazié reached out to let me know he was going to be considering doing this type of
[00:08:42] work and he wanted me involved at the very beginning of the process. And I said yes.
[00:08:48] And,
[00:08:49] what we did was really to dive into Dazié's journey together.
[00:08:55] And in creating the space, , for me, it was about digesting Dazié's life and work as, material with which to make visual art that would then create an experience within the space for the audience and become activated through
[00:09:18] the performance. So part of my
[00:09:21] role was to be a witness to this process with Dazié as a friend of
[00:09:26] his for over 25 years.
[00:09:28] Who's been there for a lot of these
[00:09:30] moments in his life, can reflect things that maybe someone else wouldn't
[00:09:35] be able to reflect and to provide value in that way to Dazié through his
[00:09:38] process.
[00:09:39] And then the
[00:09:40] other side of it for me was also, the charge I gave myself was to uncover universal truths or lessons from Dazié's journey that
[00:09:47] could relate
[00:09:49] to a broader
[00:09:50] audience.
[00:09:51] And I looked to mythological constructs as inspiration for that And I used them as ancestral knowledge and wisdom to help uncover
[00:09:57] them.
[00:09:58] Dazié Grego_Sykes: I would step back and say
[00:09:59] that
[00:09:59] [00:10:00] just our
[00:10:01] and the nature of our relationship
[00:10:03] was the first place that
[00:10:04] space
[00:10:04] was created because the work was
[00:10:05] extremely
[00:10:06] vulnerable and extremely personal. And
[00:10:08] I had to explore that with
[00:10:09] someone that I trusted and someone
[00:10:11] who I felt like could pull me back
[00:10:14] and push me forward because there's a way in
[00:10:16] which it can get too personal and not personal enough in certain places.
[00:10:19] So I needed
[00:10:20] someone that I could trust to have.
[00:10:23] a sense of scale of like how
[00:10:25] much to give and, and, and hold space for me when
[00:10:27] things felt unsafe and to kind of keep the temperature of what was
[00:10:31] happening in the room at any given time of what was, what the actual impact of what was being shared was, was like having the trust of that relationship present
[00:10:38] in that way made the work that followed much easier and much more possible.
[00:10:43] Pam Uzzell: Wow, that's really interesting that you say that because, you know you and I had met through your work with Skywatchers, so we didn't know each other well. And as I have a tendency to do I sat in the very front row and I could completely see how you could go too far in some of the material. But it didn't feel like that.
[00:11:07] It felt very intimate. It felt like, wow, I can't believe I'm being let into this
[00:11:12] space. I want to back up a little bit though, because how would each of you give an overview of Dazié's journey that is explored in this piece? So I'm going to ask Derrick first.
[00:11:26] Derrick Miller-Handley: Well, I think the construct of the hero's journey,
[00:11:28] , is something that
[00:11:29] I came across,
[00:11:30] , a couple of years ago and that's how I really looked at Dazié's journey and the hero's journey in summary really involves, , a hero, in this case, Dazié being called to adventure by mystical forces and, , answering that call, finding these trials in which they have to overcome some type of obstacle and taking the lessons learned from that obstacle and sharing them with the world.
[00:11:52] And I see Dazié's journey as, as an artist, as person, as someone who survived trauma, , as someone who survived certain battles over the course of his life. So the show dealt with addiction, the show dealt with sexual abuse, childhood sexual abuse, the show dealt with HIV status, being positive and living as an HIV positive person.
[00:12:15] I really saw these things as being the types of trials of a hero, and what Dazié has
[00:12:20] done over the course of his life is he's taken these experiences and turned them into art. And one
[00:12:26] of
[00:12:27] the revealing moments for me was when we put a call out for folks in Dazié's life to
[00:12:32] create some testimonial videos about their experiences with
[00:12:35] Dazié and the ways that Dazié's changed them, the way that they've perhaps changed Dazié.
[00:12:39] One consistent
[00:12:40] theme was, Dazié has always been committed to his
[00:12:43] art. So, for me, I saw that
[00:12:47] as Dazié's way of taking those
[00:12:50] lessons and sharing them with the world.
[00:12:52] Pam Uzzell: Dazié, what would you
[00:12:54] add to that?
[00:12:55] Dazié Grego_Sykes: When I think of those testimonies specifically, and I think of the overview, I think that I learned
[00:12:59] that the constant had been my art as well, it's my response to stimulus, it's not the stimulus, so I have much more of a history of tracking the stimulus, the events, the things that happened, and being aware of those, than what my response to them was, but my response has always been to filter them through
[00:13:17] my art making, um, through creativity and through thought to metamorphosize them into something that I could use, from wherever they began and then hoping and having the belief that ultimately when I share these, these experiences in the form of art that they have a purpose and a place in other people's lives.
[00:13:35] And I think that's what the work keeps coming back to is
[00:13:39] me standing as a performance artist, sharing my,
[00:13:42] my work, translating my experiences
[00:13:44] into something
[00:13:45] that can be given a purpose and a place in other people's lives. And I think that
[00:13:49] that's the
[00:13:49] theme that's running all through The Changer
[00:13:52] and The Changed. It's not spoken, but it's happening before you the whole time.
[00:13:55] So you may or
[00:13:55] may
[00:13:55] not be consciously aware of it.
[00:13:57] Pam Uzzell: Right, right. Let's talk now about the space that was created. I was fortunate enough to see it in a very intimate theater setting, and be very close to the stage and I sort of felt like, I was kind of enveloped in this space that was created really on three sides, I would say, of the performance. Is that true?
[00:14:22] Was there anything behind us? Or is it, there's the back of the theater, there are the sides, and there are the walls, and on those three sides. So can you describe the different things in that space and their role in this particular performance? This could have been, you know, one of those things, a monologue where someone stands up
[00:14:46] and
[00:14:46] performs this particular thing, but it was not that at all. .
[00:14:50] Derrick, I'm sure you had a lot to do with that. You can maybe take this question first.
[00:14:54] and then Dazié can
[00:14:55] join in.
[00:14:55] Derrick Miller-Handley: yeah,
[00:14:56] Yeah, I think in each case with each object that was featured [00:15:00] in the show and installed in that space, it began with kind of what I described earlier, digesting Dazié's journey and story and trying to find these kind of salient moments, these salient truths to bring into form.
[00:15:13] One of the layers that you'll see when you first come in are the shields. So there's these shields that are installed and hanging around the space, and they are illuminated, throughout the performance at different points. Each of the shields, represents metaphorically, the different trials that Dazié has experienced in his life, that he's either resolved in some capacity, made peace with in some capacity, moved through and learned something, or gained something from in some capacity, but, was able to transition and pivot to a new
[00:15:41] version of himself afterward.
[00:15:44] So that's what each of the shields represents, and what's really special about them is, beyond just the content and what they represent is what they're made of. So we had a
[00:15:52] discussion about what these shields should be made of and the idea came up that they should be made of
[00:15:57] Dazié's journals. Dazié's kept journals since
[00:16:00] he was in high school and he still had them. We talked about using them to make the shields and so that's what we did. So the shields are actually constructed out of a paper mache type of material made from his journals, where we actually had to go and make choices about which ones to essentially destroy and to transform into these.
[00:16:18] Dazié can speak to what the journals represented to him, but what I really got from that was that this was a record he was keeping for various reasons and holding onto and carrying with him. He's moved a lot over the years,
[00:16:29] but these journals have always stayed with him.
[00:16:31] And that
[00:16:32] this was an indication of how also
[00:16:34] this performance would become a ritual in and of itself for Dazié to transition into the next version
[00:16:42] of himself
[00:16:43] today.
[00:16:44] Pam Uzzell: Wow. Okay. Well, that brings up another question, which I'm going to throw at you, Dazié. And you can also continue on what Derrick was saying, but wow, keeping journals for that long is first of all, really interesting for me. When I've kept a journal sometimes I go back and I think, Oh my God, who was this person writing this then?
[00:17:06] And sometimes I've even ritualistically burned
[00:17:09] them
[00:17:09] Dazié Grego_Sykes: Mm hmm.
[00:17:10] Pam Uzzell: Because it's just like, Oh, I really want to let go of who that person was writing then. So it's so interesting that you kept them this long, but then I'm wondering about this process of, I wouldn't say, you destroyed them, but you definitely transformed them or allowed them to be transformed into something else.
[00:17:28] So talk about both these things, this idea of holding onto something like this, and then having this moment where you're allowing them to be
[00:17:35] transformed into
[00:17:36] something else.
[00:17:37] Dazié Grego_Sykes: I have to say that I've always, since
[00:17:39] I was a child, like I
[00:17:40] have
[00:17:40] objects that go back to first and second
[00:17:42] grade that I wrote
[00:17:43] notes to myself on.
[00:17:45] So I wouldn't forget what they were, who I got them from, what they represented to me. Like I always
[00:17:49] was interested in tracking my memory, and tracking who I was and how that changed over time. And for me, the journals served
[00:17:57] as evidence of whom I had
[00:17:59] been,
[00:18:00] and they were an opportunity for me to try and put myself back into a space and time that I wasn't in anymore. I'm very much like
[00:18:07] they say that,
[00:18:08] uh, like goldfish have the memory of like five seconds or something, so they're always living in present.
[00:18:14] So, like, if you're a goldfish and you're dying, you've been dying for as long as you can remember kind of thing, like just being and but I consider myself to be very much a goldfish when it comes to being present. I'm like, I'm very much present in the now and it's almost like. The future and the past, they just don't have, I'm just not anchored in them.
[00:18:30] And so I forget what was and what I want to be like. So like Derrick has been a huge gift to me just because Derrick is a witness and a reminder of what realities were, because I would get completely lost. And so I used them as a way to track and remind me of where I had been. And what I'd come from and I've been through so many lives and have been so many different people, that are very drastically different in my mind
[00:18:53] to who I am today, that it was helpful to have that, that proof, to have those reminders and have that history there written. And they went back to 1994 and transforming them was something I felt called to do. I felt. As if nothing else made sense but to transform them into these shields, to literally let them become the metaphor.
[00:19:18] It seemed like the, the only thing to do that made them right, I'd been dragging around this huge trunk full of journals for years. And what was I going to do with them anymore? And I looked through them all one last time and decided if I was going to be precious about any pages or any books, and ultimately knew that they were all precious to me.
[00:19:39] And I just, I had to hand them over and I didn't participate in the actual destruction of them or the transformation of them. Like I, I ripped a couple of pages out of a book and was like, I'm good. I know that I can't measure what they meant to me, what. was kind of sacrificed and what I don't have anymore as a result of transforming
[00:19:57] them.
[00:19:58] That I'll never truly [00:20:00] get, be able to wrap my mind
[00:20:01] around, what it
[00:20:02] meant to turn those over.
[00:20:04] But I also think that I've made
[00:20:06] them magical and mystical and powerful by transforming them in this way because now they've become art. And I think that ultimately
[00:20:15] what's happening to my life
[00:20:16] throughout time is that it's becoming art.
[00:20:18] What's happening to my story and my
[00:20:20] experiences throughout time is that it's becoming art. And it just made the most sense, for them
[00:20:25] to become art.
[00:20:29] Derrick Miller-Handley: Yeah.
[00:20:29] Pam Uzzell: Yeah. Well, I want to go back to a question for you Derrick.
[00:20:33] Derrick Miller-Handley: Yeah.
[00:20:34] Pam Uzzell: Earlier you talked about this idea of creating a sense of, you know, like a mythology.
[00:20:41] Derrick Miller-Handley: Mm
[00:20:42] Pam Uzzell: Out of Dazie's life and the hero's journey and elevating it to an idea of mythology. And I want to tie this in a little bit to some other work I'm seeing you doing now that you're showing on social media, because I think it's very much in the same line in terms of elevating things as sacred objects.
[00:21:07] And I'm wondering how that played a role in this show.
[00:21:12] Derrick Miller-Handley: I'll first give it like a little bit of context. So for me and my work and kind of what I brought to this with Dazié, I took an inventory of all the work that I've done. I kind of did a little bit of a retrospective inventory for myself and I was asking myself, well, what am I seeing here of all of my visual work?
[00:21:28] What came to me was that I'm telling, I'm telling stories, but I'm not just telling stories, I'm telling mythologies through my work. And so I wanted to dig into what that really meant. And what I've come to understand is that mythologies are related to narratives, where something like a personal narrative can tell you what happened, a mythology can tell you why it happened, why it was important, what you've learned from it, those types of things.
[00:21:55] It, it holds the lessons. So for the work that I'm doing now and for the work that I did with Dazié with The Changer and the Changed, I was really focused in on that. How can we find these lessons, and how can we find this meaning, and in a sense find some resolution, because that's also what mythology does.
[00:22:15] It helps to provide resolution for the inexplicable. So why did this thing happen to me? Why did it hurt so bad, and why do I have to live with this? Those are the types of trials that Dazié had to go through in his journey, and it's one of those types of universal truths that I referred to earlier that I think that we all have faced in our life in some way.
[00:22:37] Pam Uzzell: Yeah. And what was interesting as someone watching this performance is that I didn't feel separate from it.
[00:22:51] obviously it was not my life, but there was an invitation in this performance. And Dazié, I'm wondering if you, if that resonates with you at all, or if you can talk
[00:23:05] about that.
[00:23:07] Dazié Grego_Sykes: I think that more than anything, what people were experiencing
[00:23:10] was the truth. and authenticity. Everyone and everything about this
[00:23:16] piece was chosen for a really specific and
[00:23:19] intentional reason. The space that was held in was specifically had to be a community based space. The people that
[00:23:25] were behind that space
[00:23:26] I had to know them for a certain period of
[00:23:27] time. I had to understand the work that they were creating for a certain period of time.
[00:23:32] It needed to be in and of my community, as opposed to being a black box
[00:23:35] theater somewhere in San Francisco, which were spaces that were available. But instead we
[00:23:38] chose this, what feels like a
[00:23:40] community center in East
[00:23:41] Oakland,
[00:23:42] to transform into this work.
[00:23:44] Creating this work with my closest
[00:23:45] friend, not a friend, but my
[00:23:46] closest friend, being
[00:23:48] the person that helped me
[00:23:49] create the tangible environment that, that was in it, the person who
[00:23:52] helped me go through the memories
[00:23:53] and the stories and the poetry and the writing to choose
[00:23:56] what
[00:23:56] was going to actually make the stage and what wasn't, , the person who was going to inspire me into creating new work, , around the theme.
[00:24:03] The people who perform in the piece being one, one of those friendships goes back 30 years and
[00:24:09] for the audience, it's just this really dynamic
[00:24:11] performer. And for me, it's I'm looking
[00:24:13] at
[00:24:14] one of my closest friends, on stage with me in the holding space for me,
[00:24:17] in
[00:24:17] real time. Like, when I'm on stage and we're talking about maybe going too far, we're talking about the difference between me turning into a
[00:24:24] pile of, like, inconsolable tears in front of an audience and me being able to hold my stuff together and get to the next part of the performance.
[00:24:33] The line between those two things at times was, was extremely thin. As always, as a performer, I needed to ensure that my audience wasn't uncomfortable or afraid for me during the performance. And that mean I had to have people who had my back and holding space for me in real time during the performance.
[00:24:50] And it couldn't be another actor. It had to be someone that I trusted, someone who was a witness to these things, someone who would have space for these things and someone who served as proof [00:25:00] that we survived these things already. And that could never be lost. When I look to my left or to my right, like there were people that were living proof that we had already gotten through these obstacles and we were just revisiting them,
[00:25:11] we weren't reliving them. And I think that people thought and felt so invited into it because it was what was present. It wasn't, it wasn't a story. It wasn't being referred to. It was actually happening. And becoming a part of your reality in real time because you were sharing those moments with me and they weren't, we weren't on stage acting, we were on stage, I would say performing in the sense that we were amplifying what was already there.
[00:25:34] And we were making conscious decisions about how things were moving and navigating the space that had been decided that had been rehearsed. But the truth of what was happening was happening in real time and because everyone, it was something that was happening for everyone in that room, and will never happen again.
[00:25:49]
[00:25:49] And
[00:25:52] that's what made it, it, it precious
[00:25:55] and spiritual and feel
[00:25:56] valuable and feel like it had
[00:25:57] weight.
[00:25:58] It wasn't, it was just that it felt. It wasn't even that it was real. it was actually happening.
[00:26:05] People were being invited
[00:26:06] into watching a
[00:26:08] transformation take place. This piece was created
[00:26:11] and birthed out of a
[00:26:12] desire to
[00:26:13] be changed by the work,
[00:26:15] to be changed by the experience, because that
[00:26:17] was the leading theme,
[00:26:18] something like turning over something as valuable as my journals was a no
[00:26:21] brainer
[00:26:21] because it was like, this is about transformation. It's not about staying the same And bringing what we've already brought forward.
[00:26:26] It's about making something new.
[00:26:31] Pam Uzzell: Yeah, I wondered about that title when I walked out of this, because I definitely felt changed
[00:26:42] by the performance. And I thought, yeah, I thought, okay, this is performance and you, know, this artwork is that the changer and are all of us in the audience to change, but it's so interesting to hear that really this
[00:26:57] this idea of change is also about you
[00:27:01] and this journey. Both of your work remind me of the, Archaeology of Silence exhibit by Kehinde Wiley.
[00:27:11] Did you see that,
[00:27:12] Dazié?
[00:27:12] Dazié Grego_Sykes: The most
[00:27:12] recent
[00:27:13] Pam Uzzell: At The DeYoung,
[00:27:14] Dazié Grego_Sykes: I did see it.
[00:27:15] Pam Uzzell: This idea that you felt, I don't know if you felt this way, but that you're in
[00:27:17] sacred space.
[00:27:19] Dazié Grego_Sykes: I actually, I knew Kehinde when he was a student here. And I went and, and we were, we're actually very good friends for a period of time. Well, now I wouldn't say so because he's off in New York doing whole important Kehinde Wiley things. We've lost touch, but I was there and I don't think that I witnessed what other people witnessed.
[00:27:35] I witnessed. Just being in awe of someone who came from where I come from, who made it happen. And I don't just mean becoming a world renowned artist. I mean, was , materially realizing their work and having it put into the world and considered for what it was, I was struck by people standing over his work and having these deep and important conversations about it.
[00:27:57] And knowing that this guy, this kid that I used to know had succeeded in materializing those conversations and that that was intentional. So like I was there doing that. If that makes any sense, it was hard for me to experience
[00:28:09] it from the
[00:28:10] outside.
[00:28:10] Pam Uzzell: No, I understand. This is the first I've seen any of his work, in person. So, but I think that both of you, your work that you're doing is working in a similar vein that you are elevating things into sacred space, into mythology, into, a space that has not traditionally been reserved for Black or queer art.
[00:28:37] Derrick Miller-Handley: I would agree with that. And I would add that I
[00:28:39] think what's happening is we're creating new spaces and basis for which there aren't reference points
[00:28:44] for yet. There are
[00:28:46] visual languages and things, for example, that
[00:28:48] Kehinde Wiley will work with the classical art language.
[00:28:52] Where it becomes in conversation with
[00:28:53] that. But he's, I think his work, our work,
[00:28:56] other work that's, that's happening, , is creating new space. And I think that's what's exciting about it for me. One of my ways into that is to actually name the mythological aspect of it because of its reliance on the original genesis of new ideas and ways of putting, putting things together to make sense
[00:29:17] of the world around us.
[00:29:18] And I think as folks of color working in,
[00:29:22] art spaces,
[00:29:23] I think it's important for
[00:29:24] us to be carving out these spaces that
[00:29:26] are uniquely our own as well.
[00:29:27] Dazié Grego_Sykes: And I want to
[00:29:28] add that we
[00:29:29] considered
[00:29:29] and talked about and were intentional about Afrofuturism,
[00:29:33] uh,
[00:29:33] about,
[00:29:35] I mean, if you want to talk a little bit about the
[00:29:37] hand painted lettering, Derrick,
[00:29:38] and
[00:29:38] the inspiration for that, it was so
[00:29:40] deeply rooted in where we come from as a people, as Black people and as Queer people simultaneously. But that being an anchor that
[00:29:47] gave us the freedom to move about
[00:29:49] as we needed without any fear that we were going to
[00:29:51] somehow
[00:29:52] become disconnected. As long as we knew where we were coming
[00:29:54] from, we
[00:29:54] knew where we were going. And there was futuristic aspect to the feel
[00:29:58] of the piece, the [00:30:00] appearance of the piece, the aesthetic of
[00:30:01] the piece, because we were deeply
[00:30:02] embedded in
[00:30:02] that idea
[00:30:05] Pam Uzzell: Oh, wow. Yeah, Derrick, if you have more to say about that I would love to hear it.
[00:30:10] Derrick Miller-Handley: So one of the things that you would be impacted by is the form of things and the colors and the, the lights and so forth. What one of the undercurrents through the work that materialized as we were getting deeper into particularly the idea of ancestral knowledge and getting into the idea that, at least for me, like the kind of devastating realization that, you know, as someone who, is mixed race has ancestry around the world, one of the lines of ancestry that's cut off from me because of slavery is my ancestry in Africa.
[00:30:47] And, it was important to us to bring Africa in, and so you'll find that the shape of the shields, for
[00:30:54] example, are shaped, after the, the Zulu shields.
[00:30:58] , the
[00:30:58] lettering,
[00:30:59] That you find on The
[00:31:01] Watchers,
[00:31:01] which is another set of pieces that lived on stage representing ancestors of Dazié's,
[00:31:07] they're dressed
[00:31:08] in
[00:31:08] a cloth that has
[00:31:10] a hand lettering that I created, inspired
[00:31:13] by an inventory
[00:31:15] of African diasporic designs. So, geometrically formed brushstrokes
[00:31:21] that created the
[00:31:22] letter forms and feature writing of Dazié's. Same
[00:31:26] with Dazié's
[00:31:27] wardrobe through the show was also covered in these letters. So,
[00:31:31] We are very much rooted in that awareness of
[00:31:35] where we come from and what's missing and wanting to bridge that gap through intuition, through research, through experimentation with these different forms. We went back and forth and
[00:31:48] had conversation with this work, for like over nine months, I think it was, wasn't Dazié?
[00:31:53] So over the course of that time , I think we really stayed committed to having an
[00:31:59] honest source
[00:32:00] point for everything that you saw. And that's why it had the feeling of being
[00:32:04] cohesive and
[00:32:05] part of a cohesive
[00:32:06] work.
[00:32:06] Dazié Grego_Sykes: I once wrote that white people can
[00:32:08] have history. Black folks get ancestry. There was something that we were cut off from and something we were
[00:32:13] tapped into by being separated from our history.
[00:32:16] And ancestry, an idea of where
[00:32:18] we come from and our access to the ancestors was broadened
[00:32:20] in many ways because our access was through prayer, through meditation, through spirituality, it wasn't through a literal, historical connection. And because it was broadened and that made that wide, it made available to me the mythology, it made available to us this aesthetic, it made available to us the possibility
[00:32:36] of, Creating change through the creation of art
[00:32:39] and being impacted by it, like all of that became possible and feels very rooted very
[00:32:44] very much in the Black American
[00:32:45] experience because of the distance created
[00:32:48] historically because of slavery.
[00:32:50] Derrick Miller-Handley: I was just going to add
[00:32:51] that as we were
[00:32:53] approaching that, it was also important, for both of us, and
[00:32:56] especially for me in creating these visuals, to not attempt to recreate something that was specifically from an African culture or
[00:33:04] place, , because it's not something
[00:33:06] that I can own.
[00:33:07] So for me, it was walking this
[00:33:10] really interesting space of, like, how do I bridge
[00:33:13] that gap the way that perhaps my ancestors did when they started from scratch?
[00:33:17] What can I intuit? What can I start to play with? Another piece that, that was featured in the show was the, the artist mask that Dazié wears, which was inspired by ceremonial masks worn throughout the world, but also in Africa, where the wearer really is taken over by the
[00:33:33] spirit. And, we were considering this impulse for of Dazié's is to bring his life's, experiences into his work and to be creating art throughout his entire journey, as having a source. And what if we could make that source real, a spiritual source, we called it 'The Artist'. And so we created this mask so that he could invoke that spirit, um, at the very beginning of this show and
[00:33:59] that form for that mask, while I studied a lot of different masks and African masks in particular, came in a
[00:34:06] dream. So it was the synthesis of all of that information, from wherever it comes from that really brought that form together. So there was a sensitivity about that, not wanting to
[00:34:18] appropriate something
[00:34:19] that we couldn't really own.
[00:34:21] Pam Uzzell: Right. Right.
[00:34:22] Dazié Grego_Sykes: I really appreciate about this piece in particular because we have a history together. There were things that we didn't have to repeat or say that we'd already said that feel like you have to say as a Black Queer artist every time you get on the stage and make sure that you check these boxes that we're dealing with race in this way and queerness in this way.
[00:34:37] And we're all, we're all clear about that. Now we can say the thing we came here to do. Because we had the history we had together. I didn't feel anchored to that. And it felt. really
[00:34:46] freeing to be held by the result of those conversations, which Blackness was wasn't represented in conversation as much as it was represented in
[00:34:56] the experience.
[00:34:57] It wasn't talked about. was actually being [00:35:00] lived,
[00:35:00] as
[00:35:00] opposed
[00:35:00] to creating the way that I felt like I had before, where I
[00:35:04] felt the Black identity, Queer identity had to be centered directly in front of you at all periods and times in
[00:35:09] order for
[00:35:09] that to be Black,
[00:35:10] Queer
[00:35:11] work, but instead, this was actually just being Black and Queer by default.
[00:35:15] And not having
[00:35:16] to explain that is what made it relevant and valuable and important. and
[00:35:20] that's what I feel is new about
[00:35:22] the
[00:35:22] way that the work was navigating the world is because
[00:35:24] it wasn't overtly
[00:35:25] trying to be Queer or be Black.
[00:35:26] It just
[00:35:27] was because it is.
[00:35:30] Pam Uzzell: Right. Right. Yeah. So, just for a moment, I do want to go back to the other performers who were on the stage with you because you. talked about how important that was. Can you talk about
[00:35:44] them?
[00:35:45] Dazié Grego_Sykes: Sure.
[00:35:46] Uh, one was a singer songwriter, Black Lesbian, uh, named Nyree Young. And Nyree Young and I met about 10 to 12 years ago. I used to, help host the Oakland Queer Open Mic, and Nyree was very, very fresh here from another state, from Florida, and was looking for community, and we met. And I was sort of like, you're looking for community.
[00:36:07] You need some friends. Well, we're going to be friends because she's just gotten here and we just, bam, we were friends. And she's a singer, songwriter, musician, percussionist, and has been a very, very close friend of mine since then. And the second is Keiva Le Cadena, who is a transgender Hawaiian woman, who I have known since my early days of coming out when I was 16 or 17 years old, I came out fresh onto the streets of San Francisco, which at that time meant the Mission District and a bar called Esta Noche, where we, we hung out in front of Esta Noche and in the alley of Esta Noche as teenagers together.
[00:36:40] And Keiva used to perform drag numbers inside. And that's what, those little dollar, crumpled dollar bills they gave her in tips was how we ate every night. And when I'm on stage and I'm looking at her perform, during that performance, I'm remembering and holding space for the boy in me who looked up to and revered this goddess, who stood above the dirt and the grime and the poverty and the hunger and the hustling and being on the street, and got to put on a full length beaded gown and be flawless and interpret these legendary songs for an audience who just would just roar in applause and throw money at them. Like she was just this. She was like a deity
[00:37:15] to me when she was on stage and I hadn't seen her perform that way since 30 years
[00:37:21] ago
[00:37:22] because as a trans woman, she doesn't go around performing
[00:37:24] drag. Do you know what I'm saying? This was, and this wasn't about doing a drag show. This was about narrating an experience and being a witness and holding space for the truth. So as that was happening, I was damn near moved to tears because I had, I didn't even see her do it in rehearsal. I've never seen her not do it on stage and not see her do it with the awe
[00:37:43] of the audience because she's an outstanding performer and interpreter of music.
[00:37:48] Derrick Miller-Handley: And I'll say for the
[00:37:49] record, you were moved to tears. Because I
[00:37:50] got evidence.
[00:37:52] Dazié Grego_Sykes: very, It's
[00:37:58] it's a precious friendship because we
[00:37:59] survived, we survived being on the street, as Black and Brown people as Queer runaways essentially with no families like
[00:38:08] we survived that and we didn't just survive that and we're just living in the world, we're thriving in the world and we still have our
[00:38:14] friendship intact and love each other extremely deeply and haven't gone crazy haven't ended up in
[00:38:20] jail and haven't ended up dead as a result of the conditions that we've survived.
[00:38:23] That we didn't succumb to those things.
[00:38:25] So not only
[00:38:26] is it a 30 year friendship, it's a testament to our survival as, as Queer People of Color,, living conditions that were not desirable and were not meant to support us into becoming the humans that we are.
[00:38:38] Pam Uzzell: Right.
[00:38:39]
[00:38:39] Pam Uzzell: You've both been hinting at this throughout our conversation, but I'm doing a series on belonging and I know that, I know my inspiration for reaching out to you to do this based on the idea of belonging, but what would you say about the notion of belonging and this work that you did together?
[00:39:07] Derrick Miller-Handley: I think for me, it started with creating a space of belonging , between the two of us, for our experiences and our stories. And then extending that space to the audience, in a nutshell. That's where the notion of belonging really comes in for me, where we are bringing that same level of thoughtfulness, interrogation, creativity and invitation that we have for ourselves and extending that outward.
[00:39:40] And I think in the hopes, for me at least, in the hopes of being able to create an experience that we can all share in
[00:39:49] that can facilitate some measure
[00:39:51] of healing or
[00:39:52] revelation.
[00:39:55] Dazié Grego_Sykes: I hear belonging and I just, I think about this work and I think [00:40:00] about my life
[00:40:01] as an artist, as a performer. And it's all about
[00:40:04] belonging. It's about who this trauma
[00:40:06] belongs to and how it belongs to me. It's a, it's about creating a place in the space where that can belong to something
[00:40:11] and, and be something meaningful and have value in how we belong to one, to one
[00:40:16] another in the community, , and how we belong to our cultures and our shared time and environment.
[00:40:21] And. It just keeps going. The desire to belong, I think,
[00:40:24] is at the root of who I am and therefore is associated to the outcomes of what I create
[00:40:31] and the lens through which I
[00:40:32] experience my life is constantly looking for a space and a place and a way to belong and a way to claim instead of distance myself from things that have been really difficult is what this piece really ultimately was.
[00:40:45] It wasn't about pushing away things that were hard. It was about embracing them and saying, you know what, this thing that happened actually ultimately changed me in these really fundamental, important ways and made me as I am possible and I embrace who I am. So I have to, by default, bring these things in.
[00:41:01] I don't have to desire them occurring
[00:41:05] to have a place for them to belong in my life. Because they do.
[00:41:09] They're mine.
[00:41:10]
[00:41:11] Pam Uzzell: Wow. Yeah.
[00:41:14] Yeah. so so interesting. Well, this was a beautiful piece of work that I witnessed that both of You created. I really appreciated that you held it in this East Oakland space. It made me much more likely to go, first of all, because as someone who also lives in East Oakland, you don't have that much of a chance to go see a show like this here as opposed to a small theater in San Francisco.
[00:41:46] And I appreciated the way that, you interacted and involved the audience, Dazié. That's what I felt being there. And I felt like the audience responded to you. It really felt like there was a group that knew you also very well and listening to their responses made me feel like I was in a very privileged place to also be able to be here and experience this Thank you both so, so much for creating that. It was a really special night. It was not the equivalent of just going to see a theater piece. It was really being in a space and being able to feel a sort of transformation for when you left
[00:42:39] that
[00:42:39] space.
[00:42:40] Dazié Grego_Sykes: We're really glad to have you. Thank you for being there to witness it. And calling us in to do this. Because it's, it's helped me reflect more deeply upon it as
[00:42:47] well.
[00:42:48] Derrick Miller-Handley: Same. I really appreciate that. I heard something very similar from a good friend of my husband's who was able to come, who's never, you know, been to, I think, something quite like that. Um, but he said something very similar. I think it speaks to your question about the notion of belonging, also, that it could be so intimate and you could be in a space where clearly there's relationships but still feel as though you are invited to
[00:43:13] participate.
[00:43:15] Pam Uzzell: Right. Well, before we leave, can both of you tell people where they can find out more about each of you and
[00:43:24] about Bundle of Sticks?
[00:43:25] Derrick Miller-Handley: Yes, you can learn more about us at www. bundle-of-sticks.com. We are also on Instagram, , bundle of sticks. You
[00:43:37] can also find Dazié and myself on Instagram and Facebook
[00:43:41] as well.
[00:43:43] Dazié Grego_Sykes: There's music to be had
[00:43:44] . If you go on Apple Music or Amazon or any of your major, streaming platforms and you look up Dazié Grego and it's D A Z I E with an accent over the E, G R E G O. If you look up, you can find my book, Black Faggotry, or listen to some of the spoken word pieces interpreted to be recorded as, studio, , albums and singles are up there as well if you just want to experience the
[00:44:03] work.
[00:44:04] Derrick Miller-Handley: Yeah, and After T.H.O.T, the
[00:44:06] single that came out of the
[00:44:06] show,
[00:44:07] is also up
[00:44:08] on all major
[00:44:09] music platforms.
[00:44:10] Pam Uzzell: All right. Well, thank you both so, so much. It's been great to dig a little bit deeper into The Changer and the Changed.
[00:44:18] Dazié Grego_Sykes: Thank you for having us.
[00:44:19] Derrick Miller-Handley: Yes, Thank
[00:44:20] you.
[00:44:20] Pam Uzzell: You're listening to Art Heals All Wounds.
[00:44:50] Thanks to Dazié Grego-Sykes and Derrick Miller-Handley for sharing some details of how their relationship as friends shapes their art and resulted in the [00:45:00] performance piece, The Changer and the Changed. If you want to learn more about Dazié and Derrick and their art collective, Bundle of Sticks, I'll include links to the Bundle of Sticks website and other ways to connect with them on social media.
[00:45:13] Do you want to share a story about belonging? You can leave me a voicemail at my website ArtHealsAllWoundsPodcast. com and I'll share your story on the show and If you want to leave me a little something to help support the show You can go to my website and click on the 'buy me a coffee' link. Every little bit helps me to continue making this podcast Thanks for listening The
[00:45:40] music you've heard in this podcast is by Ketsa and Lobo Loco. This show was recorded using Squadcast.FM.