Today, I am joined by Jim LeBrecht and Sara Bolder, husband and wife creative team. Jim is the co-director with Nicole Newnham of the film Crip Camp: A Disability Revolution and Sara is a producer of the film along with Jim and Nicole. We discuss their film, which shares the beauty, insight, and humor of one group of disabled young people at Camp Jened. Jim and Sara share why this project was particularly special for them and highlight the disability advocacy work that they’re doing through the film and other organizations. Join us as we dive into the story behind Crip Camp, the challenges and highlights of the documentary, and what Jim and Sara are up to now.
Topics Covered:
● The inspiration behind Crip Camp
● Jim’s experience as a camper at Camp Jened
● The magic of the People’s Video Theater archival footage
● Powerful moments and motifs from the documentary
● How Jim and Sara met
● Jim and Sara’s working and romantic relationship
● Jim’s advocacy work in Hollywood and beyond
● What Sara and Jim are currently working on
Guest Info:
Follow Me:
● Art Heals All Wounds Website
● Art Heals All Wounds Instagram
● Art Heals All Wounds Twitter
● Art Heals All Wounds Facebook
● Art Heals All Wounds Newsletter
Today, I am joined by Jim LeBrecht and Sara Bolder, husband and wife creative team. Jim is the co-director with Nicole Newnham of the film Crip Camp: A Disability Revolution and Sara is a producer of the film along with Jim and Nicole. We discuss their film, which shares the beauty, insight, and humor of one group of disabled young people at Camp Jened. Jim and Sara share why this project was particularly special for them and highlight the disability advocacy work that they’re doing through the film and other organizations. Join us as we dive into the story behind Crip Camp, the challenges and highlights of the documentary, and what Jim and Sara are up to now.
Topics Covered:
● The inspiration behind Crip Camp
● Jim’s experience as a camper at Camp Jened
● The magic of the People’s Video Theater archival footage
● Powerful moments and motifs from the documentary
● How Jim and Sara met
● Jim and Sara’s working and romantic relationship
● Jim’s advocacy work in Hollywood and beyond
● What Sara and Jim are currently working on
Guest Info:
Follow Me:
● Art Heals All Wounds Website
● Art Heals All Wounds Instagram
● Art Heals All Wounds Twitter
● Art Heals All Wounds Facebook
● Art Heals All Wounds Newsletter
[00:00:00] Pam Uzzell: The episode you're about to hear is part of our Season 2 series on family. Whether family of origin, or family of choice, is your work a family affair?
Welcome to another episode of Art Heals All Wounds. I'm your host Pam Uzzell. On this show we meet artists transforming lives with their work.
When I was in college and studying film, I knew that my life partner would be another filmmaker. That we would hang out in the corner of our live-work loft where we did our editing, take cigarette breaks together and discuss the direction of our film projects. And none of that happened; not at all, not even the cigarettes. I quit smoking decades ago. Nevertheless, I still have a lot of curiosity about what the romantic partner/creative partner relationship is all about.
The documentary film, Crip Camp: A Disability Revolution tells a story of a group of kids who attended a camp for teens with disabilities in the 1970s, and then went on to become leaders of the disability rights. Crip Camp was co-directed and produced by Nicole Newnham and Jim LeBrecht. Jim LeBrecht is a long time sound designer.
Lots of documentary filmmakers went to Jim for the sound work for their films. To say that Jim's friends in the documentary film world were excited about Crip Camp would be a major understatement. Not too long into the production process of Crip Camp, Sara. Who is married to Jim LeBrecht came on board as another producer.
Sara has also worked in post-production sound on many films, and she had amazing fundraising chops. The two of them, in partnership with Nicole Newnham, were really a dream team for making a documentary film.
You're listening to art heals all wounds, listen, and let us inspire you.
James LeBrecht, who also goes by Jim, was born in New York in 1956 with spina bifida, a birth defect in the spinal cord that left Jim unable to walk. At the age of 14, Jim began attending camp Jened in upstate New York with other teens with disabilities. It was at this camp that Jim and his campmates began to feel a sense of empowerment and independence.
I was fortunate enough to see a five-minute teaser of Crip Camp while it was still a work-in-progress. I saw amazing footage of Jim and the other teens at camp Jened. I really expected to see a heartwarming story about an amazing camp. When I finally saw the finished film, my mind was blown. The story of the camp is heartwarming. And heart wrenching. And so, so funny! But the story told in this film is so huge. It's the story of the activism and the fight for disability rights that took place in the decades following those summers at camp Jened. The brilliant leadership of this movement can be traced back to these camp sessions where a bunch of teenagers got a taste off how, together, they could affect change that would empower millions. Crip Camp was chosen by Barack and Michelle Obama as part of their Higher Ground Productions. It won the Audience Choice Award at Sundance in January of 2020 and was nominated for an Academy Award. Nicole Newnham was unable to join us for this interview, but I'm so happy to talk to Jim LeBrecht and Sara Bolder about working with your romantic partner and the far reaching impact of this documentary.
Hi, Jim and Sara, thank you so much for being on this episode of Art Heals All Wounds. Could you introduce yourselves and tell us what you do?
[00:04:30] Sara Bolder: I am Sara Bolder. And I was one of the producers along with Jim LeBrecht and Nicole Newnham of Crip Camp.
[00:04:36] Jim LeBrecht: And I'm Jim LeBrecht, Nicole Newnham and I directed, produced and wrote Crip Camp as well as with Sara producing.
[00:04:47] Pam Uzzell: Both of you have worked in film for a long time. Can you give a little bit of your background?
[00:04:55] Sara Bolder: I hoped to be a documentary picture editor starting out, but for various reasons ended up getting into post-production sound. And I did that for a long time on documentaries and on a lot of big features, I worked at Skywalker for a long time, and I met Jim kind of via that world.
[00:05:16] Jim LeBrecht: And I've been working in audio since I was a baby, but I’ve been a sound designer and sound mixer for 40 years. Started out in theater, being resident sound designer at the Berkeley Reparatory Theater. Kind of glommed onto the people at the Saul Zaentz Film Center in Berkeley and became a sound effects editor and mixer a little bit and supervisor a bit there.
And then I had my own company for 25 years, Berkeley Sound Artists, and we really kind of focused on the documentary world a lot, really trying to bring high expectations around the quality and design of sound for documentary film. But having spent a lot of time working in documentary films and getting to know Nicole Newnham over the course of working on three of her previous films, about six years ago, I talked to her thinking that maybe she'd like to make some films around disability.
And the idea for Crip Camp was one of those things. The last thing I kind of pitched her over lunch, and that caught her attention. And then she asked me if I would work with her.
[00:06:28] Pam Uzzell: Oh, that's so interesting. I wanted to ask you about the background of this film. It's an incredible film in terms of the piece of history that really, I would say, to many people is unknown in this country, around the Disability Rights movement.
And it's also your personal story in some ways, I mean, it's very much, you are a part of this story. Did that feel, or how did that feel? You've been sitting as a sound mixer way, way, way behind the camera for a long time. And suddenly you're going to move in front of the camera. How did that feel?
[00:07:10] Jim LeBrecht: It was a lot of, kind of the nuts and bolts of making a film, was really unknown to me and something I hadn't done before, you know, shooting interviews on location and hiring folks, but Nicole and I crafted an extraordinary collaboration, and being someone with a lifelong disability, I was born with spinal bifida and have never been able to walk, kind of my understanding about the community, but more importantly, the story of Crip Camp is really about this camp, Camp Jened, that I attended as a teenager in the early 1970s, located in the Catskill mountains, run by hippies. And this is really a time of political upheaval, a lot of liberation movements and such, and, you know, we were starting to talk at camp about our own liberation movements and so, by being there, and really kind of indoctrinated some of us about maybe there was something we could do to help, but to get back to your question, I kind of went off the rails here on you for a second.
Pam Uzzell: That's great.
Jim LeBrecht: You know, I think that because it was a good collaboration and that we were hiring really well experienced people that allowed me just to kind of trust in the process, trust in Sara, trust in Nicole, our editors and such. And it wasn't like if I had a strong opinion about something that I couldn't express it, but if I wasn't sure I would just kind of like lay back and figure that more experienced minds were at play here.
I just think that really worked really, really well, but you have to have trust, you have to have respect. And so I did have to change hats all the time, but there were times I'm thinking like a filmmaker and then we're looking at a scene and I have some narration in the film and all of that was kind of spontaneous initially.
We had a field recorder with us in the editing room. And sometimes I would start talking about something and Nicole said, let's record that, this is really good, and Nicole would go away and write some narration. And then she and I would work on it and record it in another room. But all of it, it wasn't like we sat down and had a narration session, you know, a year and a half after starting the film.
This was constantly happening. And I think an interesting story is we were fortunate enough to go to the edit lab at Sundance. And one of the things we did one day was, you know, Crip Camp has got this incredible wealth of black and white video that was shot in 1971. We had about five hours’ worth five and a half hours’ worth of that footage.
And as an exercise, one day at the editing retreat, I just was spontaneously responding to some of that footage. I wound up almost in some Jack Kerouacian way, probably riffing and talking and stream of consciousness for about 45 to 50 minutes. Which we all recorded. And I don't think we used a lot of that in the final film, but it opened up this avenue of how we were going to approach the narration.
And I credit about 40 years of doing therapy on and off in my life to allow me to know how to access my thoughts and feelings.
[00:10:51] Pam Uzzell: Haha. Well, I just want to say, I want to come back to this archival footage. So help me remember that. But Sara, go ahead. And then I have a question for both of you after that.
What were you going to add, Sara?
[00:11:03] Sara Bolder: I was going to add that, I think another part of that, uh, collaboration between Jim and Nicole was there was a real superpower achieved by having an insider and outsider perspective. The film, it wouldn't have been as good as it is without both of those things. And it was really smart that Nicole, you know, realized she's not part of the community and it wasn't just, she didn't want Jim just being a protagonist in the film that they, they really needed both voices.
And I think Jim benefited from that outsider perspective, I don't mean just in terms of experience-level as filmmakers. I mean, being outside the community. So I think that's a very, especially given where we are right now with documentaries where such an important subject as authenticity of the storyteller is being really looked at in a serious way that there is a power there because I think a lot of filmmakers are questioning, do I have the right to tell the story? I'm not part of the community. And I do think there is a power to that insider and outsider pairing.
[00:12:05] Pam Uzzell: Well, I do want to back up a little bit, because part of the reason why I am super-interested in hearing your story is that you are husband and wife, and I want to go back and you can say, this is none of your business, but you were colleagues. How did the romance come about? What's the story there that happened..
Sara Bolder: You mean how we got together?
Pam Uzzell: Yes
[00:12:33] Jim LeBrecht: Is this part of the art and healing aspects of your podcast?
[00:12:38] Pam Uzzell: Yes. That if you do art, you will meet your soulmate and get married.
[00:12:43] Jim LeBrecht: Yeah. Pretty much. That's the rule.
[00:12:44] Pam Uzzell: That's the promise that I'm making, yes.
[00:12:48] Sara Bolder: We were colleagues. We knew each other a little. We had worked on some of the same low to no budget films when Jim was making the transition from theater. And when I had just moved from back east around the time I met you, Pam, a long time ago and we didn't get together then, but years later we did, we remained in the Fantasy building and, um, it's, you know, it was just good timing and the right people.
And he's just remarkable. And also then I entered this world of disability, which I knew nothing about through Jim. So my role, I thought it was, to kind of keep in mind those non-disabled people who know nothing and get plunged into this world where they are, you know, they're, it's just mind blowing, like, oh, this busting every stereotype I had, the sense of humor is like fabulous.
The level of creativity from having to always jerry-rig everything in your life is really high. So anyway, I'll let Jim take it away from there.
[00:13:49] Pam Uzzell: Well, do you have anything to add about the romance?
[00:13:54] Jim LeBrecht: I mean, I, I had bumped into Sara over the years. I had been, she was working up at Skywalker Ranch and I'd be up there on occasion.
And I always thought about her as being kind of this unique personality and fun person and, and attractive. But when we kind of got reacquainted, gosh, um, Sara, what is it about 18 years now?
[00:14:18] Sara Bolder: I've lost track about,
[00:14:19] Jim LeBrecht: yeah, it was, we always do this time. Yeah. A mutual friend of ours, Patty Tauscher, who you may know.
Pam Uzzell: Of course.
Jim LeBrecht: The three of us went out to lunch and then we decided that the three of us would go out to see a movie. And Patty bailed on going to the movie, but Sara and I went out and I liked being in the world with her. And we subsequently went out and we just had a, it was, it's been a lovely romance and the most important thing in my life.
And when we officially started dating, our friend, Patty, said, don't ef it up to me, which if you know Patty, you could hear her.
[00:15:04] Pam Uzzell: I do know that! Well, I remember running into you guys and I knew Sara better than I knew you at that time, Jim, and I always thought to myself like, wow, she is such a good catch.
And then I ran into you guys and you were having lunch somewhere and there was just this energy. And I was like, oh, Okay. And then you guys said, Yes. We're together. We're going out. And I was like, oh, that's so perfect! Yes.
Sara Bolder: Thank you, Pam.
Pam Uzzell: Well, so we can go back to talking about the film now, but I just had never really heard the story behind...
[00:15:50] Jim LeBrecht: I really didn't expect this question.
[00:15:54] Pam Uzzell: It just came to me that I really wanted to know because, because part of also what we're talking about is that being work colleagues and also being married or, you know, having being a significant other.
And initially when there was talk, going around about you making this film, Jim, you were making it with Nicole. And then at a certain point, Sara came on as producer. And I am so curious to know about the working relationship there. On the one hand, it's very handy to have someone who also knows film as your significant other living in the house with you and all this stuff. Were your roles really defined, were you often sitting around though talking about creative things, or how did that work?
[00:16:44] Sara Bolder: I think our roles were very well-defined because Jim knew Nicole well. I did not know her well. It can be very dicey working with a husband-and-wife team. And Nicole had done that before successfully, but she was wary of it and she didn't know me, so early on when I talked to her about it, she requested that I not be the traditional creative producer, because she was worried about two against one, and also kind of, you know, too many cooks in the kitchen. Cause we also had a very well, two very hands-on executive producers. We had a lot of cooks in the kitchen and so I was happy for that to be the case. Jim and I would talk about the creative part of the film a lot.
I think that helps having defined roles. I ultimately found that a difficult role and also there were challenges for me. In that if I hadn't been married to Jim and I was a producer and there were three of us producing co-directors, I could have stepped in in a different way when there were issues. I don't mean creative issues, but I mean, stuff comes up, you know, it's very personnel stuff and there's, there's all kinds of, you know, hairy things that can and do happen.
But because I was married to Jim, I, that was not a viable role for me on those occasions. But otherwise, I think it worked out pretty well. And then what would you say?
[00:18:07] Jim LeBrecht: Yeah, I mean, you know, Nicole kind of expressed her concern and, you know, we, we heard her and Sara was really, you know, leading kind of the charge on raising funds for the film.
I mean, Nicole had a great deal experience, but Sara had, has had a lot of experience in development also. So, you know, not really something of this magnitude before, but it just, it just kind of seemed like we all kind of found our natural roles here. Certainly, when it came to looking at cuts and, uh, the film, you know, Sara would weigh in as well as our other producers.
[00:18:48] Sara Bolder: There were times when it was hard to get away from the film. I was working at home mostly, but occasionally at the Fantasy building where we had edit rooms and offices, but we never had enough space. So Jim would come home and I would have been working on my own all day. And it's like, you know, I just wanted to get 30 things answered and you know, and move things forward.
So there were times it was a little difficult balancing the marriage, the relationship, and the film. And my role is, you know, producer-wife. It was, um, it's a challenging situation, no matter why, you know, no matter what the relationships are on these teams, it's, it's challenging getting a feature doc together. And then I'd say the pressure I felt ratcheted up when we started getting, you know, Higher Ground and, and more attention when it was clear it was being watched. And that we were, you know, we had the potential to really take it out in a big way.
I felt more pressure of course, but anyway, that's a good problem to have.
[00:19:42] Pam Uzzell: Right. And I just wonder too, about, because you're producing a film for your spouse. Does that also change the emotional stakes for you around the film getting bigger, because it really did. It was, it started off as this independent documentary and then it became like this incredibly anticipated film.
[00:20:06] Sara Bolder: I don't know what to compare it to, you know, it was an incredibly gratifying experience. Yeah. Yeah, there was pressure because of the anticipation, but I would say maybe Jim had more pressure because of feeling the weight of the expectations of the disability community on his shoulders.
[00:20:25] Pam Uzzell: Oh, wow.
[00:20:26] Jim LeBrecht: I mean, I guess, uh, I think it still just comes back to respect and confidence in someone.
And also, you know, I was doing a lot of different things. I didn't need to kind of feel like I was like trying to keep a really close eye on producing, on the things that Sara was doing. Producing was more about working with our crew and other things. So I had plenty on my--both Nicole and I have plenty on our plates.
So, in any kind of situation, this could be something that could cause a lot of friction or, or difficulty, especially when you’re together, but it just wasn't the case, you know, it wasn't like, you know, there weren't some urgent things for us to talk about at times and I would come home pretty tired or like, I don't think I can answer one more question, but I just, you know, I think Sara and I have a great deal of love and respect for each other.
And, uh, and that's certainly played out the way we regard each other in the relationship, I believe, played out in our working together on the, on this film.
[00:21:33] Sara Bolder: Yeah, I agree. Thank goodness. Thank goodness. Yeah, I think there was so much joy involved too, right? The excitement and the joy of like getting it out into the world and the Sundance premier and all of that.
So to be able to enjoy that together was really special. That was super special. And, you know, then the Oscars, the whole thing, that was, it was just a very once in a lifetime special experience.
[00:21:55] Pam Uzzell: Maybe not once in a lifetime, you guys might…
[00:21:59] Jim LeBrecht: But also, you know, we, we traveled first, the shoots and we went to visit with Judy Heumann a number of times in DC and we're back east and we had this infamous trip to Alabama that never made it into the film, but you know, there was a lot happening. And so I think what I'm saying is, is that yes, we were making a film, but yes, it was also an adventure and something that we share together. And we went through together.
[00:22:32] Sara Bolder: And that we still reflect on together. I mean, we're still reflecting on it because it's, it was a lot to digest that was as it was all happening.
So we still reflect on it on how incredible and yeah, it's still something I think I know for myself, I'm still digesting the experience and, and the film is still out there in the world getting to a lot of places. So we continue to kind of be connected with the film and with each other over it. So, yeah, it's a great thing to experience together.
[00:23:04] Jim LeBrecht: And the life of the film is that, A, yeah, it's been seen throughout the world, it’s had impact. A lot of screenings have happened independently that we didn't even know about in places. But we've heard about this Crip Camp effect in Hollywood, where the industry is starting to realize that there's more stories.
There's more than just tragedy in overcoming a disability when it comes to stories around disability that there's joy, there's sex, there's humor. There's, you know, there is anger and all sorts of other things. That's the human condition for everybody. And that we're not. So, you know, we're, we're not, it's not just black and white, but we are all shades of emotions and experiences. And so, with the success of our film, I think definitely we've been hearing about people getting meetings and getting things off the ground that I think we pushed things over a ledge that we were kind of close to. And so I'm, you know, I'm always going to be thrilled about what our film achieved in that regard.
You know, about three and a half years ago. I, you know, I had started this, I had co-founded with a bunch of a few other people. A group called Forward Doc, which is Filmmakers With Disabilities dash Doc for documentaries. And it was like the summer of, uh, 2018. And it was at the Getting Real conference in LA that the international documentary association produced.
And I had put together a panel on filmmakers with disabilities working in documentaries, and then we had a convening right afterwards, and we had about 30 or 40 people in the room that were disabled filmmakers or allies. And out of that, we were able to coalesce into a group of founders and the organization is going strong.
And in fact, just today, we hosted a panel with, uh, Reid Davenport and Keith, uh, oh my God. What's Keith’s last name, Sara?
[00:25:15] Sara Bolder: I'm just blanking out. I almost said Keith Richards, but obviously that's not it key. I'm blanking out on his name. Oh my God. Wait a second. Keith Wilson. Keith Wilson. Thank you. Woof.
[00:25:26] Jim LeBrecht: Oh my God. Thank you!
So, so anyway, we're right at the end of Sundance and they had a film that Reid directed about his experience of being disabled in the world, but it's kind of partially experimental, but I mean, we, we had about 80 people for this kind of panel with, with them and then kind of a follow-up breakout session with our members and allies and stuff.
And it was just like, oh my gosh, you know, for so long, you know, you feel like you're the only one out there from your community trying to do anything. And now there are people and we have resources and we have community groups like A-Doc of Asian filmmakers or Brown Girls Doc Mafia that, you know, we really took our inspiration from them.
For me, I think Crip Camp lit a fire and was an example people could use and say, you know, you can do this. So I'm not trying to pat myself on the back or anything. But I think that when we talk about what Sara and I talk about and what we're seeing, you know, it's like reality check sometimes. Do you see what's happening?
[00:26:40] Pam Uzzell: Right. Well, I will virtually pat you on the back because I have to say, I, I don't know what rock I was living under, but I think I felt like I knew a lot about the Camp Jened part of your film. And I had no idea that the rest of the story and I not only didn't know it about it, that that's what was in your film, but I didn't know about it as part of our history. And so I think what you did was huge. I think most of us who either weren't from that time, or we don't have much experience in the disability community just assume that one day lawmakers decided, Hey, you know, it would really be a good idea if there was greater accessibility and I had no idea and it was incredible. It was so exciting. Sort of like sit-on-the-edge-of-your-seat exciting, the story that you tell in this film.
[00:27:42] Jim LeBrecht: Yeah. I mean, you know, besides experiencing Camp Jened and what that world was like, and seeing disabled young adults as happy joyous, sexy people, uh, having a really, really good time this, you know, a few, you know, six years later, a group of people, a number of people from Jened, actually, in the Bay Area, take over this government office to try to force the Carter administration to issue these regulations that provided civil rights productions, and that went on for about 26 days. And that's an incredible story and how the Black Panthers got involved and brought in meals every day.
And then, that was really kind of a springboard for the Americans with Disabilities act. But yeah, at Sundance, why didn't we, you know, people were asking Judy Heumann, it's like, why didn't we know this story? And it's like, well, you got to ask yourselves. Yeah. Why? Well, how does, you know, people don't…I identify culturally as disabled.
Okay? And if you have a culture and a community, you do have history and it is important to know your history. It's important to know that. So you kinda know where you've come from and what's possible, and also to have pride in who you are. And I certainly learned a great deal from my elders and my contemporaries about how to think about myself, you know, especially, growing up.
I'm 65 years old. And so when I was growing up, you know, there was a lot of shame around being disabled simply because you were disabled. And so learning about disability pride and the like was just really so important. But I do want to say one thing, Pam, is that our film is just one story. That we really chose to follow this camp and these people that came out of the camp and the staff and, and such, and, and trace, trace the importance of that camp and how that motivated people in time and that, oh my gosh, there are just so many other really important stories, other historical stories.
People of color and their work within the disabled civil rights movement. And there's a whole movement around disability justice that really kind of started here in the Bay Area, which really looks at disability rights through the lens of people who've been marginalized, you know, LGBTQ, people of color.
And I'm excited to think about how those films will be coming out. And that people will learn about the modern movement and I'm hoping I'm going to live a long, long life so I can see those films.
[00:30:27] Pam Uzzell: Yeah. That's incredibly exciting. Can you say the name of the organization again forward FWD?
[00:30:37] Jim LeBrecht: FWD hyphen doc. And we've got a website@fwd-doc.org.
And we also have a Facebook group of like 400 people. But if you go to our website, A, there's just a lot of great information. And, you know, we're trying to be, become a resource for film festivals, and filmmakers, and how to make your films accessible, how to make your festivals accessible, how to engage with the disabled community.
I can't tell you how exciting this is.
[00:31:11] Pam Uzzell: Oh yeah. I downloaded the educators guide for Crip Camp from your, from your website, because I just thought yeah, from the Crip Camp website. Yes, because I felt like this applies to this film and this screening, but it applies to so many other things, too. It just makes you a better citizen in your classroom.
Whether you're the teacher or whatever authority you have. These are all things that as instructors, we need to think about these sorts of things when we're viewing things, when we're talking about things. So, I appreciate that you guys made that available. I do want to go back to Camp Jened and to this archival footage that you have.
It's not every day that you would have the kind of archival footage. It is incredible. It, it feels like, I mean, archival footage is what allows people to feel like they were there for a place that doesn't exist anymore. And so how did you get this archival footage to this camp, who even shot this footage?
[00:32:22] Jim LeBrecht: Well, in the summer of ‘71, this group of videographers who are using this relatively new technology of black and white portable video, happened to bump into people from Camp Jened at a gas station. And they're known as the People's Video Theater and they kind of started to, Hey, who are you guys, who are you guys. We invited them over to the camp to film our camp Olympics.
And when they got there, uh, after a little bit of time, they were let in. And there had been, two of the counselors that gotten the crabs. And so the whole camp was upside down because there were some campers leaving in the camp, you know, uh, the director was worried that somebody was going to go home with. the crabs.
And so, you know, there were sheets drying in the, in the, on the quote-unquote lawns, if you can call them that and anyway, it was just, everything was upside down, but it was a great thing to capture. So I, and in fact, they'd given me the camera one day and somebody pushed me around camp to do a tour.
So when Nicole and I were first talking, I said, you know, I remember this group of hippie videographers coming to camp and they gave me the camera one day to do a tour. And Nicole says, what! You've been working on this film for 40 years. And, all I can remember at the time was that the word people was in the name of this group.
And she was tenacious for about three months, trying to look in the evening on the internet. And she eventually found this ad in the back of a video magazine that had recently from, back in the day, that it had recently been digitized, that said for sale, uh, you know, this videotape of the crab epidemic at Camp Jened for the handicapped, $695, People's Video Theater.
And with that information, we wound up tracking down some of the folks and indeed these tapes, five and a half hours worth of them existed. And they were in the process of finally getting them transferred off of the half inch open reel videotapes. So there's been a lot of luck that happened with our film.
[00:34:39] Pam Uzzell: Yeah. It's a treasure trove and Sara, I'm wondering, it's such, for me, even just having Jim as a friend, seeing him at this camp was kind of incredible. How was it for you to see Jim at the camp? Because, one thing I will say. You were such a Hottie.
Sara Bolder: Totally agree.
Pam Uzzell: You had like that kind of, that sort of flowing wavy blonde hair.
And you had this way of looking at the camera, kind of like, oh, I'm shy, but I will really show you a good time. It just like the camera loved you. And I'm wondering, Sara, what was that like to see this footage of Jim in all his teenage glory? What was that like?
[00:35:37] Sara Bolder: It was fantastic that, and seeing the home movies of him as a toddler, you know, like getting the water from the bathtub and
[00:35:45] Pam Uzzell: oh, yes. That was amazing too. Yes. Yeah.
[00:35:51] Sara Bolder: Waving to the camera, like, hi, it was his personality already as a child. And then seeing him as this gorgeous teenager, I mean, just beautiful and seeing people he had told me about. His first girlfriend, Nancy and seeing Judy Heumann, who I had met by then through Jim, as this amazing, you know, counselor in her early twenties, all of it was very.
I mean, it was like this huge, just gift of beautiful stuff and also insight, more insight into kind of his development as a person and growing into the wonderful man he is, it was spectacular. And I, I think for Jim, I know we've talked about this before, seeing all these people, many of whom who are gone now and who were so instrumental in his life and especially Nancy, you know, who was his first girlfriend in a really important relationship.
Yeah, very, I think emotionally difficult at times for you. Right, Jim?
[00:36:48] Jim LeBrecht: You know, I, uh, I realized as we were finishing the film, we’re down in Los Angeles doing color correction, and, uh, I realized that I was able to visit Camp Jened every day, working on the film and I didn't want it to end, you know, and, uh, I got this rare opportunity to kind of relive that through this footage.
And then in reminiscing with people and getting reacquainted with some folks and counselors and such. So,
[00:37:20] Sara Bolder: yeah, and even we got to connect with the daughter of somebody who had passed away recently, who's an important part of the film.
[00:37:27] Pam Uzzell: Was she in that final scene? Yeah. When you go back to, when you go back to where Jened was.
[00:37:38] Sara Bolder: Steve’s daughter. That community.
He, he, uh, he's incredible. And they're a very tight community.
[00:37:42] Pam Uzzell: What was his name? Steve.
[00:37:45] Jim LeBrecht: Steve Hoffman. And talk about a handsome person.
[00:37:50] Pam Uzzell: Well, the camera just loved both of you guys. It really did.
[00:37:55] Sara Bolder: Yeah. And also the other thing about that footage is, thank goodness, The people's Video Theater, they were frigging good camera people.
You know, they really did a great job and their politics were such that they really viewed that new equipment as a way of empowering disempowered communities. So there's a lot of respect and how they’re empowering these kids, you know, to, what is it you want to film and how do you want to film it? And, you know, thank goodness.
It wasn't just that the footage was discovered it's tha it was so good.
[00:38:26] Jim LeBrecht: I mean, I reflected upon relatively early into the edit. I realized holy moly. I mean, these guys gave us agency, I mean, let alone being, let's say young adults or teenagers. But people with disabilities. You know? I mean, they could have easily come into that camp and kind of said to the camp director, so how are you taking care of these poor unfortunate people?
And it was like, yeah, help us make a film about your camp and stuff. And one of the pivotal moments of the camp section of the film is this round table discussion about how we felt about our parents and their overprotectiveness and such. And that was a direct result of them, us saying to them, you know, we would like to do this.
We'd like to make a video about how it feels to have overprotective parents and that wouldn't have happened if they had to come in there like a bunch of knuckleheads.
[00:39:19] Pam Uzzell: Yeah, that footage just, it blows me away in terms of just that it, that it was still out there in the world somewhere. And I hadn't even thought about the way that it was shot and that it was shot at all.
But the other thing I'm curious about is that you track down the one camp counselor. And you did a really great thing to sort of show how working at Jened had affected his life. How did you get in contact with him?
[00:39:47] Jim LeBrecht: Well, you know, there’s actually, you know, first off there's a number of people from Camp Jened that live in the Bay Area.
So the couple Neil and Denise Jacobson and, and Cupolo Freeman, and there's probably an email tree of about 60 people. And a lot of them are counselors and such, and there had been a west coast reunion a number of years ago, which we actually had at our house. So we'd been in touch with people, but not that consistently, but really getting connected with Lionel on a much more daily basis almost and connection.
And, you know, it was really quite profound and when Lionel came out, uh, these two other counselors came out with him to our house to, for the filming and you know, one of them, I didn't really, he was like there after I was, I wasn't planning on us interviewing him. He said, are you going to be interviewing me?
And I, okay, well, let's do it. And he's the one that started talking about it, you know, my first day there and I get on the bus and I it's like I'm frozen. I don't know what to do. And then someone kind of nudges me out of the way and that just propels me towards…I mean… It was just the perfect observation for people to hear, because it's not like you jump into this and all of a sudden it's like, you know, oh yeah, I can do this.
I mean, even myself with a disability, I went to public school. I wasn't around people with disabilities for 10 months out of the year. And it took a little acclimation on my part just to kind of get used to people who were like myself, but different for myself.
[00:41:27] Pam Uzzell: Right. Well, that's the other thing that I loved about the camp is that it felt very integrative in terms of people weren't siloed into their little, you know what, according to, okay, this is your disability, so you're going to be here or we're going to have a separate camp for you. And it is amazing to see the empathy and compassion between all of you as a group for one another.
[00:41:57] Jim LeBrecht: I mean, I learned that from people like Judy Heumann, that you have to have patience and respect and not everybody is as fluent as you are, Jim, but don't try to rush them.
Don't try to fill in the sentence for them. You know, it's just like, just be there. And you could see this, that, that in that scene, I was talking about this message to parents where Nancy Rosenbloom is not easy to understand. But we gave her the floor. I mean, that's not really quite the right way of saying it, but nobody was trying to rush her or anything else.
And it took her a while to say what she was trying to say. And although some of us didn't understand a lot of it, Steve Hoffman, who had gone to school with her, understood her well enough to say, I think I know what she’s saying. And that was a frikkin, when Nicole and I came across that scene, when we're looking at that said, boy, if we could build a camp section up to this moment and make it work, then you know, we're golden. You know, it was really stunning.
[00:43:03] Sara Bolder: And you know about that scene. When we had the raw footage, we shared it with some friends of ours and I was watching my friend David's reaction. And now granted it was uncut. So it was much, much longer. And Nancy goes on talking for a much longer period of time and we couldn't understand her. But when I, I saw my friend’s hugely high level of discomfort, which is something that people with affected speech deal with all the time. People's discomfort because they can't understand them. And he was, I don't see how you can have this in your film. It's going to be really hard for the audience to the point that they'll disconnect. So that was the challenge, right? Building up to the point where the audience was very happy to sit there and listen to Nancy. Granted in a shorter section, but to accept that, to listen, to appreciate it, to try to understand her and accept if they couldn't, and then to hear Steve kind of translating for her. But I think that was a huge accomplishment of Jim and Nicole and the editors so that people were very open to that scene. And many, many, many people cited as kind of a highlight of the film, you know, kudos to them for pulling that off, because that is hard.
It's something people, or even people with other disabilities are extremely—you know, struggle with.
[00:44:25] Pam Uzzell: Right.
[00:44:26] Jim LeBrecht: It also reminded me of something pretty funny, actually that when we pulled together our first kind of trailer, fundraising trailer with our editor and we're thinking we got something really, really great here, and gosh, it's really working.
And, our editor, Andy Gersh shows the trailer to his wife, Heather. And she kind of went, oh my God, this place looks like a camp of horrors. It was just like, we completely, she just, you know, and she was right. You know, she was right. We just couldn't see it. We were, we knew too much. And, but she said, oh my God, this place looks dangerous.
And you know, so, you know, you know this, you're a filmmaker, you know, you know, this it's like boy, it's always good to have eyes on what you're doing. And. You know, when we did finally finish this trailer, though, Andy cut a million-dollar trailer. It was just amazing.
[00:45:22] Pam Uzzell: Yeah, I actually just rewatched it yesterday and
[00:45:27] Jim LeBrecht: Well, it was the fundraising trailer, so I don't think you've seen it.
[00:45:30] Pam Uzzell: Oh, maybe I didn't. I saw the one you have on your website and what cracked me up is that you, again, you're really good on camera, Jim. And when you say, you're probably just going to go to this camp and smoke dope with the counselors and you're like, sign me up.
It was so funny. Well, I appreciated though, that you did not sterilize this camp in terms of sexuality, in terms of, I can't remember, you guys do get high at some point at camp, don't you, or am I just imagining that from that line? Okay. But I think that that's another danger when you're telling a story about disability is that, oh, these people don't have sex lives, they don't have desires, you know? And I thought that that was the brilliance of this Camp Jened footage is to see, I mean, when you said a camp of horrors, I was thinking like, yeah, it was a bunch of horny, smelly teenagers, like all making out and hooking up with each other.
Like I thought that's what you meant. I mean, I've, I've had teenagers and they are very smelly and very horny. So I thought that that's what you,
[00:46:49] Jim LeBrecht: Especially when you're a bunch of hippies, but no, actually, we were very, very safe and very well looked after, you know, at that camp. But indeed that's part of it.
It's like, you know, Nicole and I, especially talking early on, what are the things that are important for, what are the negative stereotypes or what are the things or myths that you want to bust? Or what are the landmark situations in disability history or modern disability history and things like the expose that Geraldo Rivera did on Willowbrook State Hospital was a really momentous moment.
And talking about our sexuality and talking about, you know, gee, yeah, we'd like to get high. I used to joke that if you're at a party, you know, if you're trying to find, uh, you know, the best pot, look for somebody with a disability, they probably have it, you know? So, so it was, you know, we blew open, we wanted to change, Nicole and I wanted, and all of us, wanted to change the perception of what it meant to be disabled, both for people with, and without disabilities.
That that was really important. And we heard from a number of people, how they felt ashamed, a number of people feeling ashamed about how they regarded people with disabilities or how we had changed them and people with disabilities saying, you know what? I learned this pride. It's like, I don't want to hide my disability, you know?
And, and, oh my God, if you can accomplish something like that in your life where you're freeing people”s, allowing them to have a really authentic life of their own choosing or helping them to do that. I mean, wow.
[00:48:34] Pam Uzzell: Yes. Yeah. Well, so I know that this film has a life far beyond when you released it. Can you talk a little bit about that?
I, there are a couple of things in relation to that. I know that, you know, this film was up for awards and that there were some issues with accessibility at some of these award shows, and I really appreciated that, Jim, you went onto a couple of platforms and you took on, was it NBC who wass hosting the Emmy's?
[00:49:07] Jim LeBrecht: Well, we were not up for an Emmy award. We did not qualify for an Emmy because we had gone for an Oscar. And so we had reached out to the motion picture academy pretty early, and they had to pivot because of COVID. It was an incredibly accessible ceremony. Backstage, there was a ramp on the stage. They just, it was live audio described on ABC.
And I really was advocating for the Emmy awards to really do the same thing and in engaging with the TV academy. And then they said, look, if we don't have any control over this talk, to CBS, and then that became a whole kind of political back and forth and stonewallking. And it wound up being that I was promised that there was going to be, what I really wanted is to see a ramp to that stage that would tell anybody with a mobility disability that, you know, you were wanted in this community.
And that it's possible for you to wind up on this stage. And I was promised that was going to happen. Right. And that was promised by lawyers. And, you know, this is something that I've been working on and there's other people that are involved with this now. And, uh, am I going to re-engage with all these folks pretty soon, but I've been taking a little bit of a break, you know, because this kind of work, this kind of advocacy, you're constantly telling people why you matter.
You're kind of telling people, you have to explain to people why you shouldn't be discounted and like we're being told, well, why do we need a ramp if no one has said they needed a ramp? That's not the point and or we're in compliance. That doesn’t matter. And I gotta tell you the most hypocritical thing was the head of the television academy, walking on the up four steps to this platform, to say how they were inclusive they were to everybody, including the disabled, where that set was attribute to inaccessibility.
Was just madness. Oh, so you got me on my soapbox. Thank you.
[00:51:11] Pam Uzzell: No, I know, I know. The other thing that you realize too, is that these issues of accessibility, again, people, I don't even know what I'm trying to say, that it's not always evident who's going to need that ramp. Do you know what I mean? Like they probably had so many people in their audience who need that ramp. And I don't know.
[00:51:35] Jim LeBrecht: Yeah, you’re going to ask people to have to self-identify, you know, or to anyway, it's it's it was just like, and look, I think any marginalized group has to have these fights for recognition. And remember when we had Oscars-So-White? You know, it's like, so it isn't just about ramps or braille or audio description.
It's about how inclusive we are, and look, if you want to do something it's possible. And I think that there's built in ableism. I think there's built in racism, institutionalized racism, uh, homophobia. That acts and, and, you know, you'll have to have people out there pushing and getting in people's faces about these things to say, look, I'm not represented here and it's nothing I'm doing wrong.
And you guys, you guys are part of the problem.
[00:52:31] Pam Uzzell: Yeah. Well, I'm very curious. Would you guys be up for making another film? Sara, what about you?
[00:52:42] Sara Bolder: I thought that I'd be done after Crip Camp. I'm in my late sixties. But I am executive producing another documentary that I'm very excited about, but it's a different role.
So I'm hands-on, and I'm very involved, but it's not all on my shoulders and it's with a great team and it's very gratifying to use some… and part of it has it's, it's partially a disability themed film, but it's more than that too. It's very gratifying. It feels great. And there are other films that I'm just, you know, advising on here and there.
So it's great to use what I learned on Crip Camp and a lot of the relationships I made to that continue with funders and distributors and others. So, um, yeah, I'm doing that. And then Jim, Jim is very busy.
[00:53:31] Jim LeBrecht: I'm involved a little bit with this film also called Fire Through Dry Grass. But I'm also, I've been wanting to work in scripted television to be specific around disability and humor.
And that's, that's not exactly an easy sell, but, um, I have a writing partner and she and I have had some traction in the last few months. And so we're optimistic that maybe we might get this show actually picked up by somebody, but we shall see, but that's really, my interest is in writing and, and really, you know, working in television.
[00:54:06] Pam Uzzell: Well, that's very exciting for both of you and yeah, I, I would say that anybody who watches Crip Camp and doesn't see disability and humor, I don't know. I don't know what they missed.
[00:54:20] Sara Bolder: You know, Pam, one thing on that. That was the best thing about one of the many wonderful things about the premiere at Sundance.
You know, it was a huge theater and it was packed and we were holding our breaths to see if the very first and second laughs, if they would land. And I didn't realize we were holding our breaths until they did land and you hear, you know, what was it? 14-, 1500 people. It was a huge theater, -hundred people maybe laughing and it kind of started.
And then kind of other people felt, okay, we have permission to laugh. It was the best feeling. Just the best feeling. I mean, it’s really incredible to be with a big audience and realize, oh, they're getting it. It's working.
[00:55:03] Jim LeBrecht: Yeah. We had never seen, we had never seen it with a large audience, with that audience. We just had some small screens.
So yeah, boy, it was amazing.
[00:55:13] Pam Uzzell: It's truly one of my favorite films of all time. Thank you both for making it. It is, I think on every level it's, it's got the power to impact the industry, how people see it, but just on a personal level, it was just like the most incredible evening of movie watching I've had in a very long time.
So thank you guys for all the work that went into this and thanks for being on the show and talking about it.
Sara Bolder: Thank you, Pam.
[00:55:47] Jim LeBrecht: I'll always be deeply indebted to Nicole. And to Sara and all the people that work their butts off on our film, uh, and the Obamas who were executive producers at Higher Ground. And, you know, there's just, there's so many people, if you're not in this industry, you don't know how many people can wind up getting really, uh, having profound effects on a film.
So anyway, it takes a village, right? And thank you for having us.
[00:56:14] Sara Bolder: Thank you, Pam. This was fun.
Pam Uzzell: and it's nice to see you guys too.
You're listening to Art Heals All Wounds.
I'm so grateful to Sara Boulder and Jim LeBrecht for being on this episode of Art Heals All Wounds and sharing their experience of being both romantic and creative partners. If you haven't seen the film Crip Camp, A Disability Revolution, you can see it on Netflix. Stop what you're doing and watch it right now.You won't regret it. You can also learn more about it on cripcamp.com. That's C-R-I-P-C-A-M-P dot com. There's a really good educational curriculum that you can download if you want to show this film in a class. If you want to learn more about Jim LeBrecht ,google him and you'll find some really good interviews he's given about the film. That's J-I-M new word, L-E-B-R-E-C-H-T. You can also google him as James LeBrecht. If you'd like to get an idea of how many films Sara Bolder worked on before producing Crip Camp. Look her up on I M D B.com. Her name is spelled S A R A new word. B O L D E R.
The music you've heard in this podcast is Yellow Light District by Lobo Loco, Beethoven's Piano Sonata, No 15 in D major was performed by Karine Gilanyan. The two additional pieces of music used in the intro are by Remus and Ketsa. This podcast was edited by Iva Hristova.
Thank you for listening to this episode of Art Heals All Wounds. Please follow us wherever you listen to podcasts. A 5-star rating is always appreciated!